Discussion on pace line riding b/n Waterfall and Sutherland

[weiyun]

As noted today on our ride back from Waterfall, the pace line bunch aggregated to almost 20 riders or more, making the ride risky for all involved. It was lucky that no one made contact with that dead wallaby lying in the breakdown lane. Being the last of the bunch at that point, I note the call was not passed down the line in a timely fashion. It was a wise move by some to drop off the bunch and pass on an avoidable risk.

Some suggestions made for future managements include,

- No hopping on a faster bunch unless you started with it.

- Restrict pace line bunch to no more than 6-8 riders each ie. Form multiple pace lines with separation.

- Other arrangment?

Discuss!

PS1. Unable to keep up with a faster group to Waterfall is no excuse for using a slow group to save energy for the fast return. Just need to train harder and do some solo efforts after being dropped, and try again next time.

PS2. The pace of the three bunches today looked fair with the Middies overtaking the Cruisers before Sutherland and the Fasties overtaking the Cruisers at Sutherland and then the Middies past Loftus. Previous weeks the Fasties were unable to catch the Middies all the way to Sutherland, suggesting foul play in the Middies group.

PS3. I have not heard any objections for people to jump on a slower bunch.

[christian]

I'm all for this, as it was my suggestion. We may not need to restrict the pace line size in the fast bunch, as we are all should be able to ride in a straight line and the bunch is usually small. But restricting the pace line size for the middies isn't a bad idea.

I think the only exception to rule would be for people that are fast bunch regulars that ride the park being able to jump on the fast bunch for the return if they fluke the timing ans still have the legs for it.

[eric]

Geoff S and others Thanks for organizing pace line today for the Middies. It was all good while it lasted. Middies group blew up when the fasties swooped pass and nearly all eventually merged. Lots to learn .Thanks for the effort.

[Simon Llewellyn]

I'm all for this, as it was my suggestion. We may not need to restrict the pace line size in the fast bunch, as we all should be able to ride in a straight line and the bunch is usually small.

That depends how may kangaroos are on the road! That was crazy this morning...

[wallman]

Mmm. There was a reason Huw and Adrian went off the back and Simon and I spent time off the front on the way back to Sutherland. I've not really been that fussed about our pacelines previously but this morning was very ordinary. There's really no excuse for having guys in the middle of the bunch bunny hop an obstacle the size of a dead wallaby. That was by no means the only incident today but it was certainly the most spectacular. If you are can't take the time to give a shout or a signal then you shouldn't be in the paceline. An obstacle that obvious should be apparent to everyone in the bunch before we arrive at it. This requires the guys on the front to pick it up well in advance and then for the whole group to pass the call. If the group was working well together then size wouldn't be an issue but I think it's best for us to maintain separate groups all the way back to Sutherland. The spread of abilities is too wide otherwise and when people are under pressure to hang on mistakes happen.
Matt

[christian]

I was on the front when the road kill was spotted, I backed the pace off considerably and signaled, the signal may not have gotten passed down the line.

[Adrian E]

I could feel things were not good today when I found the paceline was chaotic and dropped off the back straight away with Weiyun (soon to be joined by Huw post wallaby bunnyhop). I must say I take some responsibility for bunch hopping which I shouldn't have done. I've been sick and when the fasties came through I felt better and wanted to go a bit quicker. About 4-5 others joined me destroying the good work Geoff S had done organising the middies bunch and paceline. I noted that there were also slowies who joined us when the middies came through so in the end the fasties kept on getting bigger.

[fenn_paddler]

I was on the front when the road kill was spotted, I backed the pace off considerably and signaled, the signal may not have gotten passed down the line.

I must have been 3rd or 4th wheel back at that point, and I think the obstacle was pointed out as effectively as possible given the circumstances - moving along at 50kmh I guess. I heard yelling and a split second later saw the object and quickly realised there was no room on the left, and a white camry going past at freeway speed on the right so there was really nowhere to go except over. I was one of the bunny hoppers - cleared it cleanly and hoped for the best for whoever was behind.

This might be one of those cases agonised over and post-mortemed to death, but really sometimes sh*t happens on the way to waterfall. This was a pretty good sized roadkill and was lying right across the breakdown lane. In reality it would have been much worse if anyone had moved out in front of the white car or collided with the rider next to them so perhaps the outcome was pretty good considering. The best point I heard today was that it would have been good if a civic minded solo riding passing earlier had dragged it off the road.

Cheers,
Alan W

[weiyun]

I could feel things were not good today when I found the paceline was chaotic and dropped off the back straight away with Weiyun (soon to be joined by Huw post wallaby bunnyhop). I must say I take some responsibility for bunch hopping which I shouldn't have done. I've been sick and when the fasties came through I felt better and wanted to go a bit quicker. About 4-5 others joined me destroying the good work Geoff S had done organising the middies bunch and paceline. I noted that there were also slowies who joined us when the middies came through so in the end the fasties kept on getting bigger.

Yes, I gave myself some distance to the bunch after the road kill but stayed in contact. It was more acceptable once we hit the regular road lane with more room on either side. Running a chaotic and excessively long paceline in the narrow breakdown lane was just plain crazy. Maybe we should have broken out and took one of the traffic lane under the circumstance.

Given all the people riding below their ability today, I think Bill deserved a big pat on the back for being the counter-trend by riding out with the Fasties. Dropped on Capt Cook Br but rejoined at Kingsway. Then dropped again going up in Miranda. That's how a man is made and how to prepare for Ken Dinnerville.

One other safety issue I'd like to point out relates to right hand turns across traffic. At the corner of Port Hacking Rd/Parraweena Rd today, there were oncoming motor traffic and the lead riders dashed through the turn without a call, ignoring the moderate sized bunch following. The gap in traffic was clearly inadequate for the bunch we had and even at my 2nd wheel position, it was not safe to complete the turn. So, if you want to lead, then please look after the whole bunch rather than just the person beside you! And this is not the first time similar has happened.

[Trouty]

Well - sounds like you middies and fasties had some issues today. Good to see us slowies were well organized. A big group at the start, but a few broke off at waterfall and started a pace line at 70%, then ramped it up as we got more comfortable with it. Plenty of notice for the road kill. Still room for improvement but not bad for our first attempt with a small manageable group of 7 then 5.

Sounds like Geoff S had the middies organised but then chaos happened when the fast guys went through. I guess it's a natural racing instinct for the guys to break away and jump on to the faster group. The middies seems to be the problem, still having a wide range of skill level in the group.

[wallman]

One other safety issue I'd like to point out relates to right hand turns across traffic. At the corner of Port Hacking Rd/Parraweena Rd today, there were oncoming motor traffic and the lead riders dashed through the turn without a call, ignoring the moderate sized bunch following. The gap in traffic was clearly inadequate for the bunch we had and even at my 2nd wheel position, it was not safe to complete the turn. So, if you want to lead, then please look after the whole bunch rather than just the person beside you! And this is not the first time similar has happened.

We coasted rather than dashed, but you're right in that there was no way the bunch was fitting through that gap. I can't really see how the guys on the front of the bunch can safely call an entire group through a right-hand turn across two lanes off traffic. Traffic, unlike most roadside obstacles, is dynamic. If I was on the back of the group at that point I'd be assessing the traffic conditions and proceeding based on what I and I alone could see, rather than on what someone could see when they went through the intersection 10 seconds ago.

[mikesbytes]

When I went solo past the Middies this morning Geoffs seemed to have the pace well positioned, it looked like what I'd expect the middies to be, ie half way between the fasties and the cruisers. Well done Geoff !

Last time I went solo past the middies they immediately attacked

[timyone]

Well - sounds like you middies and fasties had some issues today. Good to see us slowies were well organized. A big group at the start, but a few broke off at waterfall and started a pace line at 70%, then ramped it up as we got more comfortable with it. Plenty of notice for the road kill. Still room for improvement but not bad for our first attempt with a small manageable group of 7 then 5.

Sounds like Geoff S had the middies organised but then chaos happened when the fast guys went through. I guess it's a natural racing instinct for the guys to break away and jump on to the faster group. The middies seems to be the problem, still having a wide range of skill level in the group.

jo, you should have been in the middies group today! it was perfect for any one thinking about jumping up from sloies, we totally coul have had all the faster slowies group, it was smooth as. I fact maybe too good for he slowies to jump up in the case of some people, which is why some, then all of themidies jumped onto the faster goup.

Im probably gonna jump into the faster group next week.

[Trouty]

jo, you should have been in the middies group today! it was perfect for any one thinking about jumping up from sloies, we totally coul have had all the faster slowies group, it was smooth as. I fact maybe too good for he slowies to jump up in the case of some people, which is why some, then all of themidies jumped onto the faster goup.

Im probably gonna jump into the faster group next week.

I really wasn't feeling 100% today and didn't really feel like smashing myself. If Geoff S is in the middies I will go up on the next ride. I am not really worried about getting dropped these days, but it was good being with the slowies pace line today.

[geoffs]

Thanks for people's comments on the middies. Yes, we did disintegrate as a group as the fasties went past. Never mind, I will be there again next week to help organise the middies. I encourage those who are ready in the cruisers to have a go in this group.
We need to hold the speed in the middies at a consistent level - the prescribed 28-30km. We also need to remember that the middies and the cruisers are 'no drop' groups, hence we need to remember to look out for each other.

[Terry]

Yeah Geoff did a good job keeping us reeled in for as long as he did.
I think that the speed was probably a little slow for me so I will have to take the plunge and try to stay on the fast bunch.
I made it to the RNP turn off at loftus last time so at lest I have a benchmark to measure against.

[weiyun]

...I will have to take the plunge and try to stay on the fast bunch.
I made it to the RNP turn off at loftus last time so at lest I have a benchmark to measure against.

That hill around Audley entrance is a well known barrier. But once you are able to stay with the bunch there, you are likely to make it all the way to Waterfall. I have spent many many weeks doing ITT from that point after getting dropped, before I made the full transition. Riding solo TT is the best training you can have as bunch riding takes away the resistance for you.

[weiyun]

We coasted rather than dashed, but you're right in that there was no way the bunch was fitting through that gap. I can't really see how the guys on the front of the bunch can safely call an entire group through a right-hand turn across two lanes off traffic. Traffic, unlike most roadside obstacles, is dynamic. If I was on the back of the group at that point I'd be assessing the traffic conditions and proceeding based on what I and I alone could see, rather than on what someone could see when they went through the intersection 10 seconds ago.

Not everyone is you and one can't assume the riders at the back has the same visibility up the road as the lead riders, and some would just follow. If the lead riders want to ride through, then at least call out and alert riders at the back to watch for traffic. Otherwise stop the bunch and filter through in sections. At least this way everyone will be alerted and can judge for themselves.

And as I said, this is not the first time it has happened and I don't think any of us want to wait for an accident before the correction.

[weiyun]

Last time I went solo past the middies they immediately attacked

I would say that's perfectly appropriate!

[shrubb face]

One thing i have noticed recently, is there is no real clear point in the ride at which we go from a paceline situation to an attacking one, where riders are trying to get ahead for the "sprint." The results of this can be seen when instead of simply rolling through, the rider tries to hold the pace and hence his/her position on the front.

This problem might be alleviated if we introduce a call and hence make it clear to the bunch, at what point we begin and end a paceline. Also this way riders who arent interested in trying to "race" for the sprint can simply sit up slightly, after the paceline has ended and let the others fight it out.

[micklan]

I would say that's perfectly appropriate!

Indeed to not attack mikebytes would be....

[wallman]

Not everyone is you and one can't assume the riders at the back has the same visibility up the road as the lead riders, and some would just follow. If the lead riders want to ride through, then at least call out and alert riders at the back to watch for traffic. Otherwise stop the bunch and filter through in sections. At least this way everyone will be alerted and can judge for themselves.

And as I said, this is not the first time it has happened and I don't think any of us want to wait for an accident before the correction.

It's a concern that we need a call to tell riders to stop following wheels and watch out for traffic. I'd like to propose 'Geronimo!' therefore as the call we make before we cross this intersection. I won't be making it though, as I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this point and ensure I'm not on the front at that intersection in future.

[weiyun]

It's a concern that we need a call to tell riders to stop following wheels and watch out for traffic. I'd like to propose 'Geronimo!' therefore as the call we make before we cross this intersection. I won't be making it though, as I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this point and ensure I'm not on the front at that intersection in future.

I think it's healthy discussion to disagree on issues. However, I would like to quote a section of text from RBCC's site on bunch riding,

The lead riders

The two riders on the front have a huge responsibility. They must set the pace, call all road obstacles and warn the bunch of any traffic changes.

When approaching a set of lights the lead riders have sole responsibility in making the call. It will either be “lights…stopping” or “rolling”. Remember that the bunch is one vehicle so if the bunch is committed to roll don’t make decisions in the middle of the bunch to suddenly stop. This will cause heavy braking towards the back of the bunch.

When entering a roundabout or turning at an intersection the lead riders must call “clear” or “car coming”. All calls should be relayed down the line.

http://www.randwickbotanycc.com/bunch%20riding.htm

Further, I think it's perfectly ok also for riders to want to ride alone and not pull others, and be responsible for others. Just have to voice out.

[geoff m]

Let's all take a sensible approach and safe approach.

In larger bunches vision is impaired down the line, so those in front must call when cars are approaching eg "Car left or Car coming" even if they choose to dash across. Over communication is preferrable.

The other golden rule is those who are behind never make a decision to cross a road, or roundabout purely on the call infront, or lack of it. You must also check before crossing in case the person in front makes a mistake or miscalculates it.

In terms of discussion above about racing and sprinting, the ride is a training ride and not a race. A fast, but controlled paceline, subject to road conditions and ultimately at each individuals own risk, is the maximum the fast group should attempt.

If people wish to sprint, race and attack we have training at the Track Monday and Wednesdays, and the Omniums once a month and Criterium at Heffron Park on Saturdays. I would encourage such enthusiasm to edge towards the Podium in Red and Black

[T-Bone]

I wasn't out on sunday, so i missed all the fun... but with regards to the right hand turn, i agree with wallman. You should always be watching for traffic no matter what the situation, including changing lanes and the like, it's always possible for someone to miss something, and call wrong.

With this particular intersection, the majority of times the gap won't be big enough for the whole bunch to go through, and how are people to guess if it's big enough?? besides, it is fairly easy for people to just look for themselves, and there are no obstructions preventing people from quickly and safely assessing the oncoming traffic for themselves.

If people wish to sprint, race and attack we have training at the Track Monday and Wednesdays

Track training is not racing, we don't want an increase in crashes from silly stuff occuring. Basically keep the racing for the races.

[weiyun]

I wasn't out on sunday, so i missed all the fun... but with regards to the right hand turn, i agree with wallman. You should always be watching for traffic no matter what the situation, including changing lanes and the like, it's always possible for someone to miss something, and call wrong.

With this particular intersection, the majority of times the gap won't be big enough for the whole bunch to go through, and how are people to guess if it's big enough?? besides, it is fairly easy for people to just look for themselves, and there are no obstructions preventing people from quickly and safely assessing the oncoming traffic for themselves.

Are you suggesting that the leaders should just make their turn without making calls, as what happened on Sun? If so, why bother to make any calls for traffic lights, roundabouts, pot holes etc etc?

Anyway, I don't see the reason for this resistance. People can only thank you for your extra puff of breath and the practice would be consistence with all the literature on bunch riding etiquette.

[Simon Llewellyn]

Track training is not racing, we don't want an increase in crashes from silly stuff occuring. Basically keep the racing for the races.

Guys racing does not equal crashing.... Track training/racing is perfectly safe as should road training/racing. The only difference is we train together on the track 2-3 times a week but on the road it's only once a week and the down hills into sutherland are always going to be fast, begginners don't get a chance to home in their bike skills before going fast like they do on the track.

But there isn't really any difference between racing & training, not until you put $2000 on the win anyway.... Anyone who needs their collarbone intact to go work the next day won't take anymore risks racing than when they are training.

The issue is not doing stupid things and learning to control your bike at high speeds & if you get involved in the waterfall sprint in your first week, well you won't get a chance for that....

[Simon Llewellyn]

Are you suggesting that the leaders should just make their turn without making calls, as what happened on Sun? If so, why bother to make any calls for traffic lights, roundabouts, pot holes etc etc?

Anyway, I don't see the reason for this resistance. People can only thank you for your extra puff of breath and the practice would be consistence with all the literature on bunch riding etiquette.

I don't think that this debate is about making, or not making calls. It's about the level of autononmy which each rider must possess to ride in a bunch. There are general rules like the 'literature' you are refering to & these are how the bunch functions but there are also times when calls will be made and the individual rider must make a call for themself.

If we were addressing this issue with children or were all first timers & were relying on the captain to make all the calls for us then this would be a very different debate. But all these guys ride in the fast bunch and have at least ridden for a couple of years of experience, have raced in bunches and are very clear about the general rules....

[weiyun]

I don't think that this debate is about making, or not making calls. It's about the level of autononmy which each rider must possess to ride in a bunch. There are general rules like the 'literature' you are refering to & these are how the bunch functions but there are also times when calls will be made and the individual rider must make a call for themself.

If we were addressing this issue with children or were all first timers & were relying on the captain to make all the calls for us then this would be a very different debate. But all these guys ride in the fast bunch and have at least ridden for a couple of years of experience, have raced in bunches and are very clear about the general rules....

For the specific corner referenced (corner of Port Hacking Rd/Parraweena Rd), if there's no calls required there, then when are calls required? When there are huge traffic lights that can be seen 1km away?

Further, the return ride was a mixed bunch including both fast and middie riders (some new), what's inappropriate about making a call on that corner?

Still can't believe the resistance on this issue given how fundamental it is related to the safety of the bunch. There's only a simple request, please ride as a leader of the bunch and look after the whole bunch. Nothing too difficult is it?

[micklan]

Input to debate. There is perhaps 1 out of 100 times you would get a full bunch (maybe 30 riders when we've merged at 7/11), thru that turn into Parraweena Rd - In that situation I don't know what the call is if leading other than "cars approaching"? its a 400 metre stretch of road which is rarely clear

[weiyun]

"cars approaching"?

Sounds perfectly appropriate (or "car up") and alerts every rider behind to watch out. No different to what we do at other minor street corners/roundabouts. The extra risk on that corner relates to it being a main road with a need to cross 2-3 traffic lanes.

[Frank.S87]

just a suggestion maybe some 1 could pull out of the bunch and stop traffic?.

i saw geoffs do this @ a roundabout once and it seemed a pretty good idead.

ive been on there a few times where people called clear @ that intersection however you are still able to see cars approaching. the road is a long stretch. like some people stated that it is almost impossible to get a big bunch through in one go. and ive seen many people go even though calls were made out.

anyways just a suggestion. and calls should be made but when?.
eg: Your the lead rider u call clear as you can see a few are able to get across, but cars are approaching. then are you meant to call Clear + Cars Approaching?. i guess it all depends on what individual's think.Some people are able to clip on fast on the pedals and is able to get across and some might stop as they are unable to. so its a tricky question.

[weiyun]

...so its a tricky question.

No, it's a serious safety issue that calls for the lowest common denominator.

[Frank.S87]

I guess not every1 have the same Lowest Common Denominator or think alike. If you ask around you will Def Get many Different answers as to What is deemed appropriate amount of space. im sure every1 agrees that calls should be made and it is a Major Safety Issue. i Dont think any1 will argue on that. Maybe a Call on sighting rule should be implemented.

[mikesbytes]

One thing i have noticed recently, is there is no real clear point in the ride at which we go from a paceline situation to an attacking one, where riders are trying to get ahead for the "sprint." The results of this can be seen when instead of simply rolling through, the rider tries to hold the pace and hence his/her position on the front.

This problem might be alleviated if we introduce a call and hence make it clear to the bunch, at what point we begin and end a paceline. Also this way riders who arent interested in trying to "race" for the sprint can simply sit up slightly, after the paceline has ended and let the others fight it out.

When did the paceline become a formal activity?

Perhaps when there is significant disparity between the riders, then when on the mad mile the stronger riders should take turns on the front, while the others hang on for dear life. Like what we use to do.

[weiyun]

I guess not every1 have the same Lowest Common Denominator or think alike. If you ask around you will Def Get many Different answers as to What is deemed appropriate amount of space. im sure every1 agrees that calls should be made and it is a Major Safety Issue. i Dont think any1 will argue on that. Maybe a Call on sighting rule should be implemented.

No, this is an objective criteria. Calls to warn riders behind is SOP for the bunch leader. It's a simple "Car up/back/right/left" or "Stop/Clear". Riding off a corner without a call is not appropriate under that criteria.

In any case, there's plenty of literature on this issue and the upcoming CNSW Cycle Skill course would further provide clarification of the expected standard.

[micklan]

When did the paceline become a formal activity?

Perhaps when there is significant disparity between the riders, then when on the mad mile the stronger riders should take turns on the front, while the others hang on for dear life. Like what we use to do.

No Waterfall ride is ever the same. Fact of the matter; is we're all getting fitter, stronger, faster - in past middies rides if we have four riders at turnaround at waterfall then the paceline shares the load evenly. At faster speeds I find it safer in paceline (preferable with known riders) than tagging behind 20 riders, becomes too big. For safety if on the odd chance, I'm at the front of paceline I will accelerate & take the lane eg. at Engadine etc as a holding point, then recommence - seems to work. There has been on occasion where 2-4 middies have joined the fasties, and I thought intergrated to an acceptable functional level ?

[geoff m]

There's been plenty of good discussion. Whilt not everyone agrees on exact details, we all share a common belief:

Importance of safety
Risks of cycling
Importance of calling as often, and intuitively as possible (this may differ person to person)
Personal responsibility
Making sure each of us do our own checks
Looking out for others

In the interestes of constructiveness, I don't think there is any value in anyone contributing further to the debate. Let's leave it at that. I don't wish to use my Moderator status to formally lock this discussion off.

[jimmy]

I'm going to stay out of the paceline debate, I have an opinion on that, but I don't think that I should enter the debate as I am yet to do a standard Waterfall ride with the club for quite a while.

As far as the safety goes at an intersection like Paraweena, I think that if the head riders have a sufficient gap, then they should call clear, as the riders go through, they should not pass the call down the line, but instead (especially the riders on the right of the bunch, who can see the traffic), look themselves and make a judgement based on that.

So, the lead riders would call clear (meaning there is a good gap and we are rolling), car left (meaning I can get through, but people behind me may want to reconsider) or stopping (meaning I can't get through and need to wait for a gap).

As others have mentioned, the group is almost certainly going to split here, and I don't like the idea of a rider trying to stop traffic, we have no right to that, and as we like to tell motorists "The Road is there to Share", we need to remember it too.

James

[T-Bone]

To me the issue is, if someone on the front calls "clear", it may be relevant for the next few riders, but then there's a chance a rider further behind will be upset with what he thought was a bad call. So maybe the best call to make is going to be "car", but still riding through, leaving others to decide for themselves...

[weiyun]

So maybe the best call to make is going to be "car", but still riding through, leaving others to decide for themselves...

Similar to what JamesC has pointed out and one that most of us have in fact practiced for a good while already. So the problem isn't so much as the "how", rather than the "do".