Sunday Waterfall bunch ride

Road cycling & upcoming rides
christian
Posts: 837
Joined: 30 Oct 2007, 19:21
Location: Earlwood

Postby christian » 21 Nov 2010, 19:35

It has been decided to change the way we run the Sunday bunch ride to Waterfall. The problem with the current arrangement is that the slowest bunch leaves first, so if someone was to get dropped by a later bunch, the only bunch coming up behind them is faster the the one they got ejected from. To rectify this it has been decided that all the bunches will leave at approximately the same time.

The fasties will be the first to leave and it is envisioned that the middies will ride with them until they get to Loftus or when they get dropped, which ever happens first. We will endeavour to make this break a clean one with the majority of the middies breaking off at the same time to ensure a bunch is formed. This gives the middies the opportunity to get faster by riding with a faster bunch. After all the main difference between these two bunches at the moment is the speed at which they go up hills, they are similar speeds on the flat.

The C28's will leave in front of the C25s. They will leave as two distinct bunches. If someone gets dropped by the C28s then they will get swept up by the C25s. This is also true for the middies, if they get dropped then the C28s will be behind them.

It may be seen that this makes the step from middies to fasties easier but from the C28s to the middies harder, but in reality the middies and the fasties currently go out at very similar speeds until they get to a hill. If a C28 wants to ride up a bunch then by all means they should, stay with the faster bunch as long as they can and then get swept up by the C28s. If this arrangement doesn't work then we can look at ways to make it easier.

These changes will start on the first ride in December, that being the 5th. The new departure time will be 6.30am from the usual location.

You will be reminded of these changes next Sunday morning.

User avatar
Stuart
Posts: 2568
Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 10:43
Location: Dulwich Hill

Postby Stuart » 22 Nov 2010, 08:20

So this means the club is abandoning the idea that we all meet at the cafe to chat and socialise? I guess that's good for the cafe as it spreads out the load of coffee making, but does little to engender a sense that we are all in the same club. But hang on a minute, if I think about it, even now the different bunches hardly seem to co-mingle or talk to each other so I've answered my own question.

I assume that only the C25's are assumed to be no drop? Although that only applies to new riders as regular riders know the way back home?

User avatar
jimmy
Posts: 987
Joined: 13 Nov 2006, 10:15
Contact:

Postby jimmy » 22 Nov 2010, 08:26

If I can add my tuppence worth (despite not riding with the bunch at all).

Personally, I think that it isn't a good idea to keep the fasties and middies together at all. I have seen a similar thing on the Renegade Ride, and it often means that the middle group will have a few keen riders on the front who are super keen to stay with the fasties.

Secondly, a Loftus split is too late. The fasties will blow the middies apart on the Kingsway, possibly even Capt Cook Bridge. If you want to keep the two groups together, you need to be aware that some riders stepping up may not be able to handle a slightly quicker pace along the flats.

Personally, it is better to have a clean split from the get go, give the fasties a 30 second lead or so from the shop, and the same to the C25's. It is too tempting for the slower groups to do their level best to catch the group in front, especially if they can see them.

James

User avatar
Karzie
Posts: 709
Joined: 03 Nov 2008, 17:14

Postby Karzie » 22 Nov 2010, 09:40


User avatar
weiyun
Posts: 4173
Joined: 17 Nov 2006, 22:32
Location: Birchgrove
Contact:

Postby weiyun » 22 Nov 2010, 09:44

Looks like the club has come to full circle from the time I joined in 2006, while Sun Waterfall ride patronage has grown at least 4-5 folds in the meantime. Communal 6:30am start and clean split was a challenge then and it'll be interesting to see how it works out now with a far larger and more diverse group of riders. There better be some strong leaders in each bunch to control and dictate the pace. I can just see how a red light will cause major mingling and how there'll be a long spread of red jerseys along Kingsway and Princess Hwy.

Hung
Posts: 118
Joined: 04 Mar 2010, 17:22
Location: kogarah bay

Postby Hung » 22 Nov 2010, 10:25


User avatar
Stuart
Posts: 2568
Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 10:43
Location: Dulwich Hill

Postby Stuart » 22 Nov 2010, 10:55


christian
Posts: 837
Joined: 30 Oct 2007, 19:21
Location: Earlwood

Postby christian » 22 Nov 2010, 11:30

You all have some good points. There was some consultation, maybe not enough with the slower bunch leaders. It was discussed by the commitee, el Presidente and Lindsay both agreed to the scheme. I'll admit it was my idea, so if it doesn't work you can all blame me.

As Weiyun has pointed out, we have gone full circle, I'm just hoping that now we have actual coaches to lead the bunches it will work a little better. Jimmy has a good point and it may actually be better to start the bunches 30 seconds apart. In the case where a leading bunch gets caught at a red light the chasing bunch will ust have to let them go leaving a gap. This gap should theoretically increase as the ride goes on. A 30 second gap means riders can still try to ride up a bunch and if they get dropped they won't be in no mans land for too long. The riders wil just have to ensurethey don't blow themselves up completely so they can't hang on to tthe following bunch. I'm guessing this is something they will learn pretty fast.

The stagered start times was originally intodruced so we all arrived back at the same time, even with this we don't all arrive at the same time. Its rare for the fast bunch not to be the first ones back, this sometimes includes middies that tack on for the ride home). So in the interest of the cafe staffs sanity wouldn't be better for us to arrive more spread out?

User avatar
Trouty
Posts: 1214
Joined: 09 May 2007, 13:23

Postby Trouty » 22 Nov 2010, 11:40

I don't mind the new scheme, but I think a definate break between Middies, Fasties is much better than letting them break off by natural attrition. This gets a bit dangerous and messy with the bigger bunches - a clean separation is safer. I also feel it is better for the Cafe to have the bunches arrive at different times, it is bad enough already with not being able to get a seat and getting one big influx of orders. C28'S and Cruisers have to date sorted them selves out pretty well, it is really the middies bunch that struggles due to it being the transition bunch and middies fearing they will be dropped. There's my say :).

kiwiames
Posts: 210
Joined: 06 Jul 2008, 17:56
Location: Stanmore

Postby kiwiames » 22 Nov 2010, 12:11

Yes i agree, if at 6.30am there is a good sized middies bunch then we should leave about a minute or so behind the fasties.

The problem with the middies the past few Sundays ive ridden is that theres only 2 or 3 of us! .. then i see a few riders in the C28s who should be with the middies.

Yesterday for the first time in awhile we had a good sized bunch - about 8 or so i think. We all kept together and averaged 32 at the servo - and 32 again at the cafe back. That is a good middies pace.

Having the fasties leave first would make the step up not so daunting for any middies rider, and also it would help the C28s move up - knowing there is a group behind if/when you do get dropped.

The cafe would appreciate as well having more time to make us coffee.

User avatar
geoff m
Posts: 1072
Joined: 13 Nov 2006, 20:41

Postby geoff m » 22 Nov 2010, 12:18

Firstly, a big thankyou to Christian who has put together this proposal, presented it to the committee (and then again to some of us who couldn't be at the last meeting), and tested the idea with a sample number of people. Bringing in change is not easy, and everyone has a view.

Some good points have been raised above about potential congestion, about the need to keep a definite break, etc, and, as per the past, we will keep an open mind on how to continue to modify and manage the Sunday rides. The important things is that our Club offers four different skilled groups which allows progression for new people, across some or all of these groups.

The idea of having the Middies start with the Fasties was out of necessity because middies numbers have been quite low lately, between 1 and 5 people most Sundays. It doesn't make sense to have a middies bunch without middies. However, the good news this week was that we had a fantastic bunch of 8-9 people, very disciplined, very steady, quite fast, and everyone looked out for each other. With those sorts of numbers, then yes, the Middies will leave about 30 seconds behind the fasties. So, the success of the middies starting as a bunch will depend on demand and numbers, and can be solved at 6.29am every Sunday quite simply.

What this proposal does allow is for those who are experienced and strong riders in their own groups to test themselves the next level up, and have fall back into their existing group, if they get dropped.

This may in fact encourage some C25s up to C28s, and some C28s up to Middies, and ultimately a small number of Middies up to Fasties in due course.

User avatar
mikesbytes
Posts: 6991
Joined: 13 Nov 2006, 13:48
Location: Tempe
Contact:

Postby mikesbytes » 22 Nov 2010, 12:33

Each solution will have its pro's and cons. It seems that with this solution there will be encouragement to move up bunches, which is an advantage, where as a disadvantage C25 and C28 will be out in the traffic 10 minutes later. We can keep an eye out for any reoccurring issues such as bunch splintering and fine tune accordingly.

One thing to be careful of is the mega bunch, which could be Fasties/Middies/C28 when Fasties are just cruising on General Homes or are stuck behind another bunch. Especially with calls and bunch overtaking.

PeterOS
Posts: 145
Joined: 16 Jul 2008, 13:39

Postby PeterOS » 22 Nov 2010, 12:38

Although I will probably be missing in action for most of December, I'm looking forward to the new start format. It worked ok in the past, but I would be against a 30 sec gap between fasties and middies it defeats the purpose of what this new format is try to achieve.

Hung
Posts: 118
Joined: 04 Mar 2010, 17:22
Location: kogarah bay

Postby Hung » 22 Nov 2010, 13:04

is an earlier start say 6.15 to early ?

as mike said

the c25's and c28's will be on taren pt bridge , rocky pt rd etc on the way back much later and traffic is clazy the later they are on it and the c25's being a no drop ride and if some gets a puncture that could mean being on the grand pde etc well after 9.30 :(

Hung
Posts: 118
Joined: 04 Mar 2010, 17:22
Location: kogarah bay

Postby Hung » 22 Nov 2010, 13:23

from my understanding when i first jioned DHBC my theory was you just wheel sucked in the c25's for a few months then as you get stronger you spend more time at the front doing the work for the majority of the ride
as your strength/stamina gets better then you move up

I think the club has grown because of the saturday slowies and sundays c25's as it looks after the newer rider and as with all clubs strenght is in numbers and we all started as a c25 at some stage

User avatar
Lizanne
Posts: 1178
Joined: 15 Sep 2010, 13:58
Location: Wolli Creek

Postby Lizanne » 22 Nov 2010, 13:54

one day when i grow up (and put together a road bike) i want to ride with the fasties!
the new format seems like a good idea. i think it will make the movement up a group less stressful. i'll be moving up to the c28's on the next ride without the fear of being dropped/lost in the process.

christian
Posts: 837
Joined: 30 Oct 2007, 19:21
Location: Earlwood

Postby christian » 22 Nov 2010, 14:30

I'm of the opinion that you should never sit on the front the entire way, others need to get time on the front to develop the skills needed to ride in a faster bunch where you are expected to have the requires skills not just the power. The exception here is people like Lindsay, who sit on the front to keep the pace constant.

Richard
Posts: 266
Joined: 06 Sep 2009, 21:04
Location: Ashfield

Postby Richard » 22 Nov 2010, 16:06

I've been AWOL for a while but my preference (if there are sufficient Middies numbers to allow) would be to start the middies 30sec behind the fasties.

Congrats to the exec for their willingness to try something new.

User avatar
Timbo
Posts: 88
Joined: 28 Jul 2007, 17:18

Postby Timbo » 23 Nov 2010, 11:26

Having ridden on and off with various of the bunches since 2005 I fully endorse the new regime and thank Christian for putting it together. The only thing I would encourage is a bigger break between the groups (1 minute rather than 30 seconds), and that we meet at 6.20 rather than 6.30 so that the slower groups get back before the traffic gets nasty.

timyone
Posts: 4380
Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 20:29

Postby timyone » 23 Nov 2010, 11:37

I support this idea for the middies and fasties, as it encourages people to move up, where we have had major issues with people saying they arent fast enough for the next bunch, but they proceed to speed the slower bunch up to similar speed to the fasties etc any way. So from this side of it it works really well for the top two bujnches, and maybe even top three, because theres so many people that would be all right up a bunch.

I have no idea about the other bunches, and yeah it wil mean less coffee together, though fasties seem to be more likely to spend ages in the cafe any way!

User avatar
Trouty
Posts: 1214
Joined: 09 May 2007, 13:23

Postby Trouty » 23 Nov 2010, 13:21


christian
Posts: 837
Joined: 30 Oct 2007, 19:21
Location: Earlwood

Postby christian » 23 Nov 2010, 14:15

Given everyones feedback I beleive it will be best to still start as four distinct bunches. That meaning the fasties and the middies will no leave as one bunch, but close enough together so if any middies wish to try riding up a bnch they can without being left in no mans land for too long. The gap will have to be sufficient so the middies don't feel the need to chase if they see the fast bunch. We all know this sort of thing happens.

User avatar
Stuart
Posts: 2568
Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 10:43
Location: Dulwich Hill

Postby Stuart » 23 Nov 2010, 17:24


timyone
Posts: 4380
Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 20:29

Postby timyone » 23 Nov 2010, 22:07

oops yeah, i dont mean for middies to start with fasties etc, that would be bad! its hard to split etc

christian
Posts: 837
Joined: 30 Oct 2007, 19:21
Location: Earlwood

Postby christian » 03 Dec 2010, 07:14

A reminder that this starts this weekend.

User avatar
Stuart
Posts: 2568
Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 10:43
Location: Dulwich Hill

Postby Stuart » 03 Dec 2010, 08:01


christian
Posts: 837
Joined: 30 Oct 2007, 19:21
Location: Earlwood

Postby christian » 03 Dec 2010, 08:16

For the first week it will be 6.30. With one minute gaps that means the last bunch will leave at approximately 6.34. I know this will be met with opposition. If everyone is there we will be able to send of the first bunch a few minutes early.

To make it any earlier we would have to be able to inform everyone that shows up for these rides. The cruisers and the middies are always there before 6.30 and most of the fasties are as well. To make it so the last bunch leaves earlier means all the bunches need to leave earlier and realistically how much difference is 10 to 15 minutes going to make to the traffic for the return leg. There will be opportunities to refine the bunch arrangement.


Return to “Road”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest