Average speed for Waterfall ride just jumped 16 Mar 2008

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 16 Mar 2008, 09:38

Just got home and noted that the average speed for the Waterfall ride has just jumped up to 31.47km/h (previous high 30.76km/h).

Possible contributing factors include,
- Separation of the fast and slow bunches at the start. We were riding at around 40km/h on General Holms Dr.
- Looping around RBCC bunch on Kings Way or there abouts and maintaining a high pace up the climb that followed.
- Resurfacing of Princes Hwy.
- Picked up a ride with the RBCC bunch on the way back to Sutherland.

I don't think there's too much wind this morning to affect it one way or another.

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Postby mikesbytes » 16 Mar 2008, 10:05

Congratulations Weiyun, that's a decent 0.71kph faster, quite a leap.

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Postby othy » 16 Mar 2008, 10:26

38 km/h up Kingsway while overtaking RBCC. That pretty much did me in for the rest of the ride.

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Postby micklan » 16 Mar 2008, 12:21

Good riding Weiyun.
Can I confirm:
- we have a 6.15am departure bunch now
- And a 6.30am group? (the faster group)

?

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Postby othy » 16 Mar 2008, 12:25

Good riding Weiyun.
Can I confirm:
- we have a 6.15am departure bunch now
- And a 6.30am group? (the faster group)

?
I think its more like a 6:30 and a 6:40 group. I don't think it was formally organised, Lindsay just thought the slower riders should get a head start and we had enough to make a reasonable sized bunch this morning.

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Postby weiyun » 16 Mar 2008, 12:38

Well, I think it was a combined effort by all in bringing this average up. Given that we pretty much rode together, I am sure it's a similar result on your computer.

Interesting thing is, the ride time was 3hrs 2mins and the distance was 95.73km. Given our recently math knowledge on this subject, the average speed could be calculated to be 31.56km. No ideas how bike computers do their averages.

As for the start time, I haven't seen any formal announcements by the exec committee. So I'd say 6:30 is still the go. In any case, 6:15 start is pushing it a bit given the darkness and approaching winter.

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Postby jimmy » 16 Mar 2008, 13:22

Weiyun, I think the simple reason why you got a different average when you calculated it manually, compared to what the computer says, is you didn't say how many seconds you were on the bike.

I worked out your time (given your speed and average), and came up with 3:02:31.

I know my computer displays the number of seconds (unless I go over 10 hours cycling time). By looking at the figures, I guess that your computer doesn't display seconds, but does use it when calculating the average.

James

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Postby weiyun » 16 Mar 2008, 13:28

Thanks James for going the nth degree and you are right again with your calculation.

It never occurred to on me that the difference could be influenced by just a fraction of a minute. My computer does display down to the second but I normally just round it off for convenience in my Excel database. Looks like I should take more notice of those seconds in future and the computer indeed extrapolate their averages based on first principle. Previously I was thinking that the computer had some alternative fancy techniques for their averages.

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Postby mikesbytes » 16 Mar 2008, 15:50

I think its more like a 6:30 and a 6:40 group. I don't think it was formally organised, Lindsay just thought the slower riders should get a head start and we had enough to make a reasonable sized bunch this morning.
And the 6.45am individual chasers

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Postby Trouty » 16 Mar 2008, 16:19

Crikey - excel databases and calculating your averages by the second! There seems to be more geeks at DHC than I thought. Anyway - here is one for the slowies who averaged between 26 to 27. It's nice to not be riding on my own for once, and finally we have a new female entry (Camilla) who kept up the pace . We even had a decent intermediate group who picked up the pace after the waterfall turn off.

Mike - I think the start time for the slowies is dead on 6.30, and since the fasties lack discipline they leave tardily after us at around 6.40am with the intent of catching up to us by at least Brighton Le-sands....which I may ad they didn't today.....May I also add - Weiyun, you are suppose to be in sick and in recovery so why you are smashing averages is beyond me.

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Postby mikesbytes » 16 Mar 2008, 16:23

The secret to a good average time is consistent pace

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Postby jimmy » 16 Mar 2008, 16:31

I tend not to do the standard Waterfall ride, but I think that it is supposed to leave at 6:30am. If people who are slower, and want a head start, then they should aim to leave before 6:30am.

My main concern with having a group leave later, is more related to the time that you return. Ideally, we should aim to be back at Suterland at about 8:20am, and rolling out at about 8:30am. This way, we return to Bobo's at about 9:30 - 9:40am.

This morning, I was surprised to see the bunch at Waterfall (I am not sure if anyone saw me wave), as I got there at about 8:10am, I normally expect to see the bunch at Waterfall no later than 8am.

James

ps, I also have a spreadsheet that I store my rides on. My first logged ride was in October 2003, since then I have logged over 400 rides, and a total distance that is now pushing 40,000km. For those who are interested I log Date, Distance, Average, Where the Ride went, Who I rode with, and Weather. I also note bike maintenance (i.e new tyres, new chain and cassette) etc. It is useful for seeing how much distance you have put into a chain or similar, rather than having no idea.

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Postby weiyun » 16 Mar 2008, 17:47

Crikey - excel databases and calculating your averages by the second! There seems to be more geeks at DHC than I thought.
Jo, don't under-estimate us here at DHBC. You haven't even seen what we do with our GPS yet. :P

http://dhbc.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2683#2683

And given the ride you like in Centennial, I think that data would be of interest to you.

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Postby mikesbytes » 16 Mar 2008, 18:53

James, the time to complete Mick Mazza's => Waterfall => Bobo's is dependent on the time that the slowest riders depart Mick Mazza's. Even with 10 minutes head start and a bad run of lights for the fasties, the fasties are still going to be waiting at the 7-11.

Joanne, we know how much you love Geeks, go on admit it.

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Postby T-Bone » 16 Mar 2008, 23:04

I should start logging my rides, maybe it'll get my training a bit more consistant.

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Postby Stuart » 17 Mar 2008, 09:09

I think its more like a 6:30 and a 6:40 group. I don't think it was formally organised, Lindsay just thought the slower riders should get a head start and we had enough to make a reasonable sized bunch this morning.
Re the start time for the slow group on Sundays. Lindsay had floated the idea of an earlier official start time of 06:15 but decided against it as new (slower) riders may turn up having read the advertised start time of 06:30 on the web and the slow group would be gone. Anyway, Winter is coming.

So the start time remains 06:30 for all. It's intended that the slow group will leave right on 06:30 so we get some sort of head start, although several Sundays ago the fast group left right on time as well (led by a call from James I think) so this may not always work.

I must add that I for one benefited greatly from a slower average speed of about 22-23kph on the outward run with the slow group and lessons in bunch leading from Lindsay. The slower outward pace meant I was able to go much harder than usual on the return to get my average up to about 27kph - which is only 1kph slower than when I've left with the fast bunch.

As for spreadsheets, what's this file "Polar Stats.xls" I see on our desktop Jo?

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Postby weiyun » 17 Mar 2008, 09:41

I think that the other way to look at this start time issue is to consider for those who are ready to make the transition from the slower group to the faster group.

The slower group serves an important function as the sweeper for the Sunday ride. So by leaving at a time that permits the fast group to catch up just before the hard section (by Kings Way for instance), it would mean that anyone who drops off from the fast group can rejoin the slower bunch coming up from behind.

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Postby jimmy » 17 Mar 2008, 10:34

I think that it is better to keep 6:30am for both groups with the slower group behind, as Weiyun said, it means that the slow group can sweep up any rider who wants to drop back.

Maybe the slower group could turn around earlier, what about at Heathcote? That would probably take about 10km off the total distance and it would be a fairly safe spot to turn around (50km/hr speed limit there).

James

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Postby mikesbytes » 17 Mar 2008, 11:45

I'm logging my rides here;

http://www.bikejournal.com

3,100k so far this year.

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Postby weiyun » 17 Mar 2008, 12:04

I'm logging my rides here;
http://www.bikejournal.com
Problem with those web based sites is that they don't last for ever. At some point they'll either crash, get sold or fold up. It would be a shame to use them as your only place for record keeping.

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Postby Stuart » 17 Mar 2008, 12:05

Turning at Heathcote means missing out on the excellent fast undulating sections on the return ride from Waterfall. As a relative Waterfall newbie I don't know that I have the answers here but agree that all riders probably want to leave at 06:30 so should we just split the groups before we start out from Mick Mazza's but with the slow group definitely leaving at 06:30? Then the slow group is still there to do the sweeper role anyway.

The slow group could also turn left at Bay St instead of Bestic St (one set of lights further on down the Princes Hwy) on the way out to save 1K & with potentially faster lights at The Grand Parade.

If the issue is that the fast riders have to wait too long at Sutherland Servo' if the slow group goes "all the way" then maybe a different strategy is required for the return? I'll leave it up to the long term members and club office bearers to decide as I've just joined the game. Maybe it means a two tier club and the slower riders see the fast group later at Bobo's? Or does that defeat the purpose of a club with regards nurturing and including new riders?

So many questions .. I'll leave the answers up to others ....

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Postby othy » 17 Mar 2008, 12:23

Weiyun, I think you are missing the most important factor - there was a new guy there on a Cervelo Soloist. His additional aero would have added at least 3-4 km/h while on front.

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Postby mikesbytes » 17 Mar 2008, 12:39

Earlier than 6.30 would discourage slower riders from having a go.

In winter the problem for the faster riders is that they get too cold waiting at the 7-11.

Seems simple enough. 6.30 on the dot for the slow riders, 6.40ish for the fast riders and they'll still be waiting at the servo.

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Postby jimmy » 17 Mar 2008, 13:03

Weiyun, I think you are missing the most important factor - there was a new guy there on a Cervelo Soloist. His additional aero would have added at least 3-4 km/h while on front.
It's not about the bike...

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Postby weiyun » 17 Mar 2008, 13:03

I think it's good to maintain a level of overlap and interaction b/n the fast and the slow groups. It would keep the cohesiveness of the club. Personally I don't mind taking a break at 7-11 as it's still early in the morning and comes after a steady effort. Hanging around at Bestic St has been tougher due to the heat and a lack of shade at that location.

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Postby weiyun » 17 Mar 2008, 13:07

Weiyun, I think you are missing the most important factor - there was a new guy there on a Cervelo Soloist. His additional aero would have added at least 3-4 km/h while on front.
I thought he was on the R3, not as aero. So maybe just 1-2km/h. :wink:

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Postby weiyun » 17 Mar 2008, 13:09

In winter the problem for the faster riders is that they get too cold waiting at the 7-11.
Simple, extend the ride a little bit past the bridge. Is there a convenient turn-off point that would add 10mins or so to the ride?

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Postby mikesbytes » 17 Mar 2008, 13:20

Weiyun, I think you are missing the most important factor - there was a new guy there on a Cervelo Soloist. His additional aero would have added at least 3-4 km/h while on front.
:D
Simple, extend the ride a little bit past the bridge. Is there a convenient turn-off point that would add 10mins or so to the ride?


This suggestion was discussed last year and investigated by James F. Apathy killed it I think?

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Postby jimmy » 17 Mar 2008, 13:32

Simple way to extend the ride for the fast group, drop down to the Toll Booth in the National Park and climb back out, that would add 10 minutes or so.

Does anyone know how RBCC or Sydney CC handle their multiple groups? I am pretty sure that they set off as a single bunch and then split after the airport tunnel. After that I think that they may ride as separate groups.

James

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Postby weiyun » 17 Mar 2008, 13:34

This suggestion was discussed last year and investigated by James F. Apathy killed it I think?
Yes, we certainly did. Maybe we should try it at the next opportunity.

A little loop down into the park at Waterfall and then climb out would take much longer than 10mins, right?

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Postby jimmy » 17 Mar 2008, 14:05

If I am climbing well, I can do that climb from the bottom of Waterfall to the top in about 11:30. So the decent is a few minutes at least, so for me the entire descent and climb would easily add 15 minutes.

However, I am aware that not everyone can climb like me. The toll booths (or probably a bit further would be better) is only just past the very steep part of the climb (at the top). It would take a few minutes for the bunch to descend and then 4-5 minutes to climb and regroup at the top.

Here is a picture (courtesy of Google Maps), and the red circle shows roughly where the Toll Booth is. You can see Waterfall in the top left hand corner.

Image

James

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Postby weiyun » 17 Mar 2008, 14:13

Thanks James. Turn around at the booth could be worthwhile.

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Postby lindsay » 17 Mar 2008, 14:28

As for interaction between the faster & slower groups I don't think the fasties should wait for us. I've made the decision to make the slower group a seperate bunch rather than split at Miranda so I can keep a tighter group & save riders blowing up when we hit the hilly part then having to recover, then riding on the Waterfall.

The problem is 2 stops and going cold. I think we should just meet up at the end at Bobo's. Anyone who gets dropped from the fasties has the option to join with us, if we meet at 7-11 Sutho then that's good but we shouldn't plan for it. The other problem is you can wait for us at 7-11 but if the pace cranks up again slow riders just get dropped & we do it all again at Bestic Street.

If I keep the stops for slowies short I don't think we'll be too far behind.
Last edited by lindsay on 17 Mar 2008, 14:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby mikesbytes » 17 Mar 2008, 14:28

Simple way to extend the ride for the fast group, drop down to the Toll Booth in the National Park and climb back out, that would add 10 minutes or so.

Does anyone know how RBCC or Sydney CC handle their multiple groups? I am pretty sure that they set off as a single bunch and then split after the airport tunnel. After that I think that they may ride as separate groups.

James
I think we have more performance disparity that the other clubs, though I have seen what appears to be a SCC womans group with male custodians.

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Postby weiyun » 17 Mar 2008, 14:32

I think we have more performance disparity that the other clubs, though I have seen what appears to be a SCC womans group with male custodians.
I bet there's no shortage of male riders volunteering for that role. :lol:

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Postby weiyun » 17 Mar 2008, 14:34

If I keep the stops for slowies short I don't think we'll be too far behind.
So there wouldn't be too much waiting time, especially if the fast bunch takes an extra detour down to the Waterfall toll booth or a bit further down Princes Hwy.

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Postby T-Bone » 17 Mar 2008, 16:03

I'll try to take another look tomorrow morning. I think there's a little loop into Helensburg that we could add in. Just need to check the road condition, could be dirt which wouldn't be suitable.

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Postby jimmy » 17 Mar 2008, 19:14

I think that Lindsay's idea is the best one.

I ride with Renegade pretty much every Saturday, they have 3 groups, and I pretty much only see the C group at the start of the ride (they do a shorter distance), I sometimes see the B Group at the Cafe at the end, but they have usually beaten us in there.

Also Mike, that 3,100km, is that all of your riding? or only specific training rides?

James

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Postby mikesbytes » 18 Mar 2008, 08:15

Also Mike, that 3,100km, is that all of your riding? or only specific training rides?
That's all of my riding. Current commute is 22k each way so it soon adds up.

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Postby Camilla » 18 Mar 2008, 13:31

I agree with Lindsay. The fasties really shouldn't need to wait for us. Apart from anything else, I'd hate it to cause antagonism and see the dissolution of the slower group. I really loved doing the Waterfall ride this Sunday with the slow group and so hope it continues. Not just for me but for others. It's a wonderful way to make the leap from Saturday - physically & psychologically. But I'd hate to think we were causing problems for the rest of the club.

Thanks Lindsay, for taking us out! See you again in 3 weeks...

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Postby weiyun » 18 Mar 2008, 14:09

I don't think there's any antagonism nor problems but a case of pros and cons for whatever arrangement we make.

Given that most of the fast riders are familiar with the route and comfortable in riding solo, anyone needing to get home early can just ride on. The short breaks at 7-11 and Bestic St are actually not undesirable after those respective section.

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Postby mikesbytes » 18 Mar 2008, 16:47

I agree with Lindsay. The fasties really shouldn't need to wait for us. Apart from anything else, I'd hate it to cause antagonism and see the dissolution of the slower group. I really loved doing the Waterfall ride this Sunday with the slow group and so hope it continues. Not just for me but for others. It's a wonderful way to make the leap from Saturday - physically & psychologically. But I'd hate to think we were causing problems for the rest of the club.

Thanks Lindsay, for taking us out! See you again in 3 weeks...
Hi Camilla, there isn't any antagonism at all, we are all happy to wait for the the slowest rider. What the issue is that in winter we get cold waiting and hence the conversation about how to consume a few extra minutes, whether that be thru different departure times, different distances or whatever. Whatever you do, don't think you are causing a problem, its a pleasure to see all riders on the road regardless of whether they are faster or slower than yourself.

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Postby Stuart » 22 Mar 2008, 17:35

I agree with Lindsay re the slow group - happy to just leave and ride at a good pace and meet everyone where and when we do, depending on the day and the group. I think it's great that this club is prepared to take slower beginner riders to Waterfall and just see this conversation as a clarification of the start times and protocols really.

I assume many clubs would require a higher fitness level before joining the ride? I mean, I don't overtake many riders on a Sunday!

See you all tomorrow morning

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Postby timyone » 23 Mar 2008, 16:32

:shock:
this thread leaves me speechless..

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Postby mikesbytes » 23 Mar 2008, 17:55

I've been a thinking [yeh I know it's dangerous]

One benefit of having the fasties behind the slowies is that if a slowie falls off the back and needs assistance then a fastie will be coming past shortly. Lindsay doesn't have eyes in the back of his head.

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Postby Kieran » 23 Mar 2008, 22:33

[quote="jimmy"]

However, I am aware that not everyone can climb like me

Is there anyone (in our club at least) who can climb like you ???

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Postby geoff m » 24 Mar 2008, 12:33

I'm a workin' at it!

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Postby timyone » 24 Mar 2008, 13:46

eughene?
isnt he our best at every thing just about?

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Postby jimmy » 24 Mar 2008, 16:06

Mike

The problem with having the slower group in the lead, is that if the fast group sheds someone because of he pace, they have a very lonely ride.

I personally think that people are going to get into trouble with the fast group rather than the slower group.

James


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