cyclists down today at waterfall turnoff

[fenn_paddler]

Here is some info on the accident we went past this morning at the RNP turnoff: http://forums.transitions.org.au/index. ... opic=28292

Cheers,
Alan W

[weiyun]

Thanks for finding out the story behind it. I am surprised that it was caused by a motorbike. But as discussed during the ride, we should think about our club policy on riding that stretch of road, especially considering the crash whilst crossing the Princess Hwy today.

For that section at the Audley turn-off, should we just occupy the full lane? Or if the bunch is small, enforced single file perhaps?

[christian]

Makes my fall this morning seem rather insignificant. Looks like I may be out of action for a while though. There was a line on one of the bones in my wrist on the xray, could be a fracture, have to wait and see. It'll be in a cast for atleast a week.

[weiyun]

Sorry to hear it Christian and it was impressive that you've actually managed to ride that far with a fracture, almost TdF material! Wish you a good recovery.

[FAswad]

The stack took place the the RNP Audley exit not Waterfall... I rode past whilst exiting the Park and the sight of bikes all over the place was qite disturbing...

[mikesbytes]

As posted on transitions, that corner works like a motorway exit, we need to treat it as such.

[jimmy]

I saw the accident on the way back from Waterfall this morning. I was talking to a guy at Hockey about it, and I pretty much guessed at what happened. A bike pretty much turned left and didn't have enough space in front of the riders.

I think that if we are a big enough bunch (maybe about 10 riders or so), then we should simply move out into the left hand lane there and go through the intersection like that. It avoids any issues with people trying to turn left into the park. We should start looking at doing as we finish passing the Loftus Oval car park. Yes it may annoy some motorists, but we typically go past there at about 7:40am, and if you are in a rush at that time on a Sunday morning, you should have gone to bed earlier on Saturday.

As far as turning from Rawson St (Sutherland) onto the Princess Highway, it is a difficult one.

If the club is large, the option of using that bike lane is kinda out, we can't fit everyone there. I think that what we do currently is good enough, but we should look at some extra precautions. First up, spread the bunch out. I am assuming that having a tight bunch is what caused the issue this morning (I wasn't there so I don't know).

Secondly, take personal responsibility for crossing that road yourself, if someone behind you calls out "clear", don't assume that it is. CHECK! If everyone else is crossing, and you don't think there is enough room, then don't cross.

As far as watching for a gap, it is hard, the people at the front can't see what is happening behind them too well, and those at the back need to watch where they are going. Those at the back are in the best position to see the gaps coming, and I think that they should try and guide the group through, but as per above, it needs to be planned better. This isn't something that we should start thinking about when you have the opportunity to make that crossing. We all know that it needs to be done, so lets start looking for the gaps before we get there. If the bunch communicates something like "After the Green Car" before we have the opportunity to cross, then we can keep an eye out for the green car, as it goes past, each rider can check to make sure there is a gap, and if they deem it safe, make the crossing.

James

[mikesbytes]

There is an option to avoid both the crossing onto Princess and the Audley turnoff and that's to cross over to the other side of the tracks at Sutherland and then ride along Loftus Ave which becomes Wheatley Rd which joins Princess Hwy at the traffic lights. Has anyone tried this route?

[geoff m]

Firstly, I believe what Weiyun says about reviewing our crossing protocol at this turnoff is worth some thinking. There are two risk issues here.

One is going from the shoulder across the exit as a vehicle turns left onto the exit.

The other is the narrow road ahead at the lights which does not sustain two rows of cyclists and not even really suitable for one.

Maybe we do move onto the road, our rightfull place, should it be deemed safer, once safety checks are made.

[geoff m]

Regarding coming out onto the Princess Hwy where Christian had his accident, I agree with James C. Extend distance between each other, as there is a hightened risk of touching the wheel in front, when looking behind for extended periods.

I saw disgraceful behaviour by cyclists here today 5 minutes later which could have caused a major accident, and no doubt blackened all our names - ironically about 400 metres before coming across the carniege described above.

I was with Julien and Kieron and we crossed the cycle path onto the Princess Hwy. The RBCC bunch of about 35 were ahead of us by about 80 metres, and crossing from the middle lane (where Christian went down).

Three cars whizzed by us three, at 90kms per hour as they are permitted. Then astonishingly, I saw the riders at the front of RBCC play chicken and dart across.

Then about 10 of them blindly followed thinking it was safe to cross (refer to James' comments above about checking for yourself before crossing). Then the next 5 or six decided to follow in a third wave. By that stage the cars had worked out that if they didn't stop, then it would be like 10 pin bowling. As they started the brake, the rest of the riders figured that the riders had taken over the road, so they too drifted across, whilst the cars at this stage seemed to have stopped completely from my viewpoint.

It reminded me of cars stopped on a country road with sheep crossing. I couldn't believe my eyes!!!

I'm sure when those three cars went 300 metres up the road and witnessed the carneige of the unfortunate group, they just assumed those cyclists had brought it upon themselves as well.

I try to keep out of commentary on other clubs, but I've never witnessed anything so dangerous as this. Beanzy, you should discuss with Bucko.

[Adrian E]

I'm very sorry to hear about what sounds to be have been a mosy terrible and completely avoidable accident. I remember discussing th saftey of this bit of road once before. Motorists tend to turn into 'speedway' mode once they've turned onto the highway at Sutherland. I definetely think we should use the event to think about our own riding habits but I also think its writing to the RTA and other relevant people to bring this matter to their attention. Some accidents can't be prevented, but some can.

Sorry to hear you a fall today Kristian. Get well soon.

[Stuart]

First up - Christian - I hope you heal quickly and I'm glad it's not too bad.

Secondly, as a long time motorcycle rider and commuter it pains me to hear that a
motorcyclist, and a Ducati rider no less was responsible for this crash today. Unfortunately, as pointed out on the linked site, there are an increasing number of high testosterone dickheads who buy high powered motorbikes and think they are Mick Doohan, Casey Stoner and Valentino Rossi rolled into one. The ones with the camo pants, no gloves, no boots, no leathers and no brain. On their 1000cc rocket ships their ability and regard for others safety is even lower than their own IQ.

I've survived 25 years of motorcycling and only 1.5 years of cycling and cycling is way more dangerous and I can tell you the general motorcycling idiot has the same attitude to cyclists as the guy in the V8 ute.

I agree also that the intersection is question is very dangerous and needs to be approached with extreme caution - like any freeway exit as Mike pointed out.

My thoughts are with the injured and it seems the cyclists are OK. I intend to make some noise within the Ducati Owners Club (of which I am a member) and in the motorcycle press about this type of issue. These idiots need to feel the wrath of their fellow motorcyclists.

[T-Bone]

As has been said, people have to remember to confirm for themselves when it is safe to do something, whether it is changing lanes or turning a corner.

One other thing James M mentioned to me on todays ride was that when calling "over" to signify it is safe to swap lanes, there are times when the passing car isn't all the way past the bunch. This could result in an inattentive rider pulling straight into the side of a passing car, though once again people should always look for themselves.
Another thing to do with changing lanes is riders not moving into the other lane before calling over. This is more to do with making it easier for the riders in front to quickly check it's safe to move, as if they can't see a rider in the lane, it's likely they'll have to look further back to see if cars are coming, which means not watching what's in front for a longer period. Just makes life easier and safer really.

For the situation at the Audley turnoff, i believe we should probably start taking the whole lane for that short section, as there are too many cars that think they can squeeze past, and there really isn't anywhere near enough room for us to safely ride if we try and stay in the "bike lane".

[weiyun]

I agree that the crossing of the Princess Hwy at Sutherland should be an individual call. As much as we have a system of calls from the rear, but given our recent growth, it's often not clear who made the call from the rear and the level of experience of that person. It's only natural that you gain a level of confidence with calls made by people you have been riding for a long time.

One point of anxiety with that crossing is the upcoming hill. I think that all of us are keen to not lose speed and get dropped at that point. So maybe if we make that section a neutral zone where the leader must wait for the stragglers, then maybe some of the pressure can be alleviated for the crossing. What do people think of this?

As for the Audley entry, I think we should give the plan of taking over the outer lane a try. The only concern is the speed of cars in that section. However, the visibility on that section is good for approaching vehicles.

[fenn_paddler]

I've survived 25 years of motorcycling and only 1.5 years of cycling and cycling is way more dangerous and I can tell you the general motorcycling idiot has the same attitude to cyclists as the guy in the V8 ute.

I was under the impression that motorcycling was more dangerous than cycling. Maybe a motorcyclist with 25 years experience is safer than a cyclist with only 1.5 years experience? Some quick googling seems to support the theory that cycling is safer, though obviously statistics can be (mis)used however the author wishes.

Here is an article that suggests .3 fatalities per milliion vs. 8.8 per million for onroad motorcycling: http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/10/8/143547/109

Cheers,
Alan

PS. Great to hear that you're ok Christian, and that the other riders (and motorcyclist) weren't critically injured yesterday.

[fenn_paddler]

There is an option to avoid both the crossing onto Princess and the Audley turnoff and that's to cross over to the other side of the tracks at Sutherland and then ride along Loftus Ave which becomes Wheatley Rd which joins Princess Hwy at the traffic lights. Has anyone tried this route?

Just looking at the map online that looks like a viable option (unless you're doing RNP in at Audley!).

Doing the big dipper would also avoid the problem of re-entering the princes hwy in a 90kmh zone.

Cheers,
Alan

[weiyun]

Given that we never stop at the 7-11 on the way down to Waterfall, what's the disadvantage and risk of taking the big dipper? I know that the speed is high and sometimes there are nasty debris on that section.

[jimmy]

I can see two issues with using the Big Dipper, one is easily avoidable.

As Weiyun said, there can be debris on the road in that section. Easy solution, spread the bunch between the cycle lane and the road lane. I can easily hit 50-60km/hr there, and it is light traffic at that time of the morning, I am sure that the traffic can use a single lane with no issues. This way, the slower and less confident descenders can use the cycle lane and the faster (and more reckless) descenders can use the road lane.

The other issue is if you get someone who wants to climb at a fast pace (hey, why is everyone looking at me?).

While this isn't a dangerous situation, it could mean that someone gets dropped.

I think that this could be something to consider, but we need to look into how to either keep the bunch together, or how to get us back together after the climb out.

James

[mikesbytes]

Just looking at the map online that looks like a viable option (unless you're doing RNP in at Audley!).

Doing the big dipper would also avoid the problem of re-entering the princes hwy in a 90kmh zone.

Cheers,
Alan

I'm happy to try out the alternate route I'm suggesting next time I ride the normal Waterfall ride.

The big dipper would suit most of us in the fast bunch but it doesn't suit the slow bunch or riders trying to migrate to the fast bunch.

The Audley turnoff could really do with a proper bike lane to join the sealed shoulder at each side, though nothing will provide idiot protection.

[Stuart]

I was under the impression that motorcycling was more dangerous than cycling. Maybe a motorcyclist with 25 years experience is safer than a cyclist with only 1.5 years experience? Some quick googling seems to support the theory that cycling is safer, though obviously statistics can be (mis)used however the author wishes.

I was talking from the point of view of actually being on the road. Sure, more motorcyclists probably die by % of riders but when comparing the act of riding a motorcycle in traffic and a bicycle in traffic I would submit that the bicycle is way more dangerous to ride. A motorcycle, when ridden within the riders capabilities and to the road / traffic conditions has many advantages over a bicycle:
1. It has sticky and wide tyres for way better grip in the wet and when lent over;
2. It has great brakes to stop faster and power to get away from traffic;
3. It's loud (or at least mine is) and you get noticed, not always I admit but at least some of the time;
4. People think you at least have a right to be on the road as you pay rego - no one throws things at motorbike riders or screams abuse at them;
5. You have a real helmet and protective clothing.

Now, I know that Motorbikes are very dangerous and I have nearly been killed / injured countless times over the years and its only through vigilance and luck that I have had no serious incidents but I still submit that I feel, and think I am, way safer on a motorcycle than on a bicycle. I also think that my years of motorcycling have made me a safer and more aware bicycle rider as I know just how f**ked up car drivers are when it comes to their attitude to stop signs, red lights, indicating, turning their head to look into the next lane before they change lanes and general lack of spacioul awareness.

I ride to stay alive, both on the bike and on the bicycle.

[micklan]

I'd say big dipper or back route. The vast bulk of accidents / near misses happen on those fast bits of the Princess Highway.
As pointed out there is very rarely a call "over" on that Sutherland/lights/then left merge lane onto Princess Hwy as:
1. we are not really rolling at all
2. lights change quick = bunch is never together
3. its a very dangerous and unpredictable stretch, in so much as: how fast is that car really going?
4. once again everyone is puffed, and straggled
One of the two options sound like a goer, perhaps the back route to get off the Princess Highway.
Or racing on a Sunday on a circuit with no cars. say Waratah Veterans
It was also noted the resurfaced shoulder on Princess Hwy is narrower
Christian that was a heavy fall mate, get well soon.
The Audley entry looked sickening - I just felt disgusted that such a thing could happen. It's very good news that they're ok.

[mcrkennedy]

One point of anxiety with that crossing is the upcoming hill. I think that all of us are keen to not lose speed and get dropped at that point. So maybe if we make that section a neutral zone where the leader must wait for the stragglers, then maybe some of the pressure can be alleviated for the crossing. What do people think of this?

I think this option has some merit.