Accident on Saturday Waterfall ride.

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Trouty
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Postby Trouty » 26 Apr 2008, 11:11

Was a beautiful morning riding out to Waterfall this morning and through the DHBC Forum we managed to pick up "Gekko" / Glen who asked to come along, and he managed to push us a little harder than we would go, but it was great.

Anyway - on the way home on Rocky Point Rd just after completing the Taren Point Bridge, we were approaching the right hand turn at the lights before the car wash (Sandringham). It just goes to show that it only takes a split second and a bit of bad luck for an accident to happen. Glen clipped my rear wheel and lost control of his bike. Some clever manoeuvring on Glen's part and also on the bus driver meant the outcome didn't end up fatal. Glen tried to manoeuvre his bike to fall on the right hand lane away from the bus and almost saved it. The bus hit him and dragged him a little of the way, but he did not go under. All I heard was the noise and saw Glen and the bike being dragged and I thought he was a goner.

Miraculously the bike only suffered a bent handlebar, and Glen had some fairly significant scratches on knees shoulders and knuckles, but could walk. No signs of anything broken although his shoulder/back as expected were in pain. 3 Ambulances turned up within 5 minutes - good to know they are on the ball - and the shop keepers there were very helpful. Anyway - Glen was carted off to hospital for the standard check. We are going back now to get his bike. I hope he rides with us again.

See you guys at Waterfall ride tomorrow.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 26 Apr 2008, 12:35

Gosh! Glad Glen wasn't more seriously injured. Best wishes for his recovery.

Coming back to this wheel touch issue. I can remember three episodes in the recent past where this has brought down our riders with injuries. Not knowing the exactly circumstance here, but as they say,
- Keep a safe distance and look ahead of the rider in front when drafting.
- Don't swerve around when at the front.
- Riders should stagger b/n riders so that one doesn't run straight into the back of the rider in front.
- Rider in front must make his/her intentions clear to the rear riders by calling or hand signal, especially for direction change and for any slowing down. Switching to standing position is also often associated with a sudden drop in speed when not executed properly.
- A quiet bunch is a dangerous bunch. :wink:

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Simon Llewellyn
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Postby Simon Llewellyn » 26 Apr 2008, 13:20

Gees that sounds really nasty for such a simple error!

Hope the injuries aren't too bad & you get back on the bike soon Glen. & don't worry that sort of thing happens to everybody!

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Stuart
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Postby Stuart » 26 Apr 2008, 17:12

Update: I have spoken with Glen's wife and they think he may have a small puncture in his lung as he's having difficulty breathing although he x-rays do not show any broken or cracked ribs. They are going to keep him in overnight at hospital and she will call me when she knows anything more.

The accident happened as we moved from the centre lane into the left hand of the two turning lanes to go right into Sandringham Rd. Jo was front, Glen 2nd wheel and myself at the rear. Jo & Glen were still in the centre lane as I called over and moved to the right of the turning lane, about 1 bike length behind Glen. Jo and Glen both moved over together and I think that Glen glanced right to check where I was and that's when he touched Jo's rear wheel. So all the calls were good and we weren't going that quick - it was just an accident, pure and simple.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 26 Apr 2008, 17:29

Thanks for the update. In some circles, all "accidents" have one or multiple avoidable root causes, short of a meteoric strike. So in this case it sounded like that Glen's attention was diverted by his glance and there wasn't enough space in front of him. I don't think it's an issue of attributing blames but to learn from it and hopefully avoid it in the future by everyone else.

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 26 Apr 2008, 18:38

Wow, bad news indeed. Hope they are wrong about the lung puncture and its just bruising.

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Stuart
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Postby Stuart » 26 Apr 2008, 19:21

Update 2: Glen has a partially collapsed lung and will remain in hospital for a day or two. Other then that he's OK! here's hoping that he makes a fast recovery we see Glen back riding with DHBC in the near future.

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williamd
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Postby williamd » 26 Apr 2008, 19:32

Glad to hear it it wasn't more serious.

A simple look back can be dangerous when you are close to someone in front.

I know another Dulwich hill rider who crashed after looking back while going to Waterfall.

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Postby Eugen Schilter » 26 Apr 2008, 20:09

The bus hit him and dragged him a little of the way
I feel we better take this serious and as much as we can. Where did the bus come from so suddenly? I cannot visualise/understand from the words above. Can somebody do an effort to expain - and explain again so that everybody understands what happened. And I think it needs one or two sketches plus a site visit. We must understand what we are doing on the road, we must understand our own behaviour and limitations; but if we choose not to then maybe some motorists, whom I am not really good friend with, are right!

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Stuart
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Postby Stuart » 26 Apr 2008, 21:10

Just for the sake of clarity here goes (but remember every bodies version of reality is different - especially when the whole thing took about 10 seconds or so).

The bus was not at fault and the driver did a great job stopping in time to avoid running over Glen. Here's a pic of the roadway where the accident occurred.

Image

There are 3 lanes on Rocky Point Rd. Kerbside is #1 and has parked cars, then 2 and then 3 which is next to the medein strip. We were occupying all of lane 2 in readiness to move right into the right hand turning lanes. The red car is where the 3 lanes become 4 with 2 right turn lanes being lanes 3 & 4.

I moved from lane 2 to 3 at about where the red car is and called over as I was third wheel. Jo & Glen continued for a few metres, looked right to check the lane and proceeded to move over into lane 3. The bus was behind us in lane 2, waiting for us to move over as I was signalling that we were moving right. I have no idea how close he was because I didn't look.

Just level with the street on the left you can see in the pic is where Glen hit Jo's rear wheel / tyre. His bike immediately veered into lane 2, in front of the bus which was by now accelerating as we had cleared the lane. It looked like he was going down but Glen then attempted to save the fall and steered right to attempt to get out of lane 2 & avoid the bus (which was behind him) but crashed on his right side in the attempt, right in front of the bus in lane 2.

This was about where the white car is on the pic. The bus was nearly stopped (?) but hit Glen as it came to a complete stop (Glen was almost completely on the ground when this happened), his bike was partially under the front of the bus and Glen was just in front of it on the ground. I didn't see any more as I was getting myself safe, over to the footpath and back to Glen.

I'm sure that when he's back on deck he'll be able to tell you exactly what happened but that's my recollection as I watched it all unfold.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 27 Apr 2008, 01:20

Interesting location unless I am visualizing the wrong place. IIRC, moving into that left of the two right turning lanes (lane 2 to 3 per description above), it's usually the lead riders that move first rather than waiting for a call from the rear. IIRC, lane 3 moves to lane 4, lane 2 forks into a choice of lane 2 or 3, so why was the call from the rear required for that move?

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FAswad
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Postby FAswad » 27 Apr 2008, 11:27

God speed recovery, Glenn.

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mcrkennedy
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Postby mcrkennedy » 27 Apr 2008, 13:34

Glen

It sounds terrible. I hpe that you recover quickly and are back on your bike soon.

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Postby Eugen Schilter » 27 Apr 2008, 13:46

Please correct if wrong/wrong empathis and or contributing facts missing: :arrow:

Joe, Glen and Start rode indian file on Rocky Point Rd northbound. After Russle Av they planned a lane change from lane #2 to lane #3 [at that point a #4 lane was forming out of lane3]. Terrain is uphill; speed was ~25km/h.

At point ‘red car’:
The lane change maneuvre started with Stuart indicating backwards by hand signal to a bus in lane2 and by shouting ‘over’.

Between ‘red car’ and point ‘Bonney St’:
Stuart moved over onto lane 3; Joe and Glen double checked and also moved onto lane 3.

At point ‘Bonney St’:
The maneuvre was 90% fininshed. J,G&S were in lane3 but not in the middle of it yet. Glen clipped the wheel of Joe. Lateral distance between lane marking (#2/#3) to Glen/Joe’s wheel at time of clipping was ~30cm(?). Speed 25km/h. Speed of bus: 50km/h(?)

Between ‘Bonney St’ and point ‘white car’:
Glen tried to veer right but fell left (sentence should read (?) :”…but crashed on his [right] left side in the attempt…”) partially(?) onto a section of lane2. At time of hitting the ground the front of the bus in lane 2 was up to Stuart’s shoulder, approx 4m behind Glen. Glen and bicycle slided, the bus braked.

At point ‘white car’
Glen, bus and bicycle came to a standstill.

Distances:
‘red car’ to ‘Bonney St’: ~38m; (~5s in traveling time)
‘Bonney St’ to ‘White car’: ~35m

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Postby Eugen Schilter » 27 Apr 2008, 13:57

One more point: From Glen falling to the left I imagine that Glen, at time of clipping, rode staggered to the right of Joe. One tends to fall to the opposite side of staggering(!?).

timyone
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Postby timyone » 27 Apr 2008, 18:55

far out the accident sounds bad!! i hope hes ok :S

and also far out thats anamazing recount of events! so much detail even photos!

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 27 Apr 2008, 19:19

Please correct if wrong/wrong empathis and or contributing facts missing: :arrow:

Joe, Glen and Start rode indian file on Rocky Point Rd northbound. After Russle Av they planned a lane change from lane #2 to lane #3 [at that point a #4 lane was forming out of lane3]. Terrain is uphill; speed was ~25km/h. ...
Eugene, you are our "Major Accident Investigation Unit", AIU.

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T-Bone
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Postby T-Bone » 27 Apr 2008, 22:22

Hope you recover quickly Glen, and don't have to spend too long in hospital.

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geoffs
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Postby geoffs » 28 Apr 2008, 10:49

All the best to Glen for a speedy recovery.

At the Prince of Wales Emergency Dept one of the majors causes of bike "accidents" that present to be treated are from wheel clips while bunch riding which is why Marian is a wee bit nervous when riding in a bunch. She has seen the results way to many times.
Learning how to avoid these situations is an important skill that perhaps we should have a few practice sessions on.

And ..... I know helmet mirrors aren't "cool" but they are helpful in keeping an eye on what is happening behind.

Cheers

Geoff

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Postby jimmy » 28 Apr 2008, 13:44

One thing to remember about bunch riding, is you have a responsibility to the person behind you.

From what I have read, I don't think that the fault was with Jo, but this is why we state that when riding in a bunch you have to ride in a consistent and predictable manner.

When you are riding an inch or two from the person behind you and you can just about put an arm around the person next to you, you want to know that they aren't going to do anything you are aren't expecting.

Something which I know a lot of riders are bad at, is changing from seated to out of the saddle. A lot of riders stop peddling when they do this, as a result, when they stand up, and they move forward on the bike, Newton's First Law of motion comes into play (An object will stay at rest or continue at a constant velocity unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force) basically, as you move your weight forward, the bike moves backward.

What you need to do is to remain peddling when you stand up, it takes practice but it does reduce the risk of incidents.

I have had a few accidents in bunches, one was my own fault, I touched wheels and hit the deck, only I was injured and it was only a minor accident. Others have been the result of bad luck, i.e. bad road conditions (oil on the road) or high wind and a pace line (Wagga 2 years ago).

At the end of the day, riding in a bunch is a risk, but then again, so is riding a bike at times. I have been in bunches where I have pretty much backed out off, I think that they are an accident waiting to happen.

In either case, Glen, get well soon.

James

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 28 Apr 2008, 14:26

At the Prince of Wales Emergency Dept one of the majors causes of bike "accidents" that present to be treated are from wheel clips while bunch riding which is why Marian is a wee bit nervous when riding in a bunch. She has seen the results way to many times.
Learning how to avoid these situations is an important skill that perhaps we should have a few practice sessions on.
Once seen, never forgotten...

I also get nervous when riding with unknown fellow riders and sometimes you just have to be vocal and tell people off should you find them behaving dangerously. Apart from one episode late last year where one keen rider was surging and overlapping my rear wheel, I had to tell another rider off this past Sunday 1/2 way b/n Sutherland and Waterfall. The particular rider was a solo rider that the bunch partly overtook, he essentially got "motivated" and tried to elbow into the middle of our bunch as if he was in a racing peloton. He was asked to stop.

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Stuart
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Postby Stuart » 29 Apr 2008, 21:37

Update 3: Glenn is out of hospital today and says he'll be back at slowies in a couple of weeks - great attitude and a top bloke.

We'd like to add that he wasn't riding dangerously, no one was out of their seat, we were going about 20kph at that time (I'd estimate), Jo didn't slow or speed up, Glenn veered left after the touch and then crashed on his right side as he was trying to come back right to avoid the bus (as I said before).

Lets not over analyse it - It's just good to hear that Glenn is making a full recovery.
Last edited by Stuart on 30 Apr 2008, 08:57, edited 1 time in total.

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jimmy
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Postby jimmy » 30 Apr 2008, 07:54

Stuart

Sorry if my post came across criticising anyone in the group, it wasn't meant to.

I was simply trying to highlight some of the causes of accidents that can occur within a bunch. By the sound of things, Glenn made the simple mistake of overlapping wheels. We all do it, but most of the time we can get away with it. This time, unluckily, he didn't.

James

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 30 Apr 2008, 09:03

Yes, I think it's important for all of us to learn from any accident that we come across and try to identify some root causes and re-remind ourselves of some of those safety issues. It can only benefit our future bunch rides. There's no criticisms involved. At the end of the day, we are all human and sh1t happens to all of us.

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Stuart
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Postby Stuart » 30 Apr 2008, 09:17

Stuart - Sorry if my post came across criticising anyone in the group, it wasn't meant to.
I was simply trying to highlight some of the causes of accidents that can occur within a bunch. By the sound of things, Glenn made the simple mistake of overlapping wheels. We all do it, but most of the time we can get away with it. This time, unluckily, he didn't. James
Jimmy - We didn't think that, just wanted to clear the air as this incident seems to have taken on a life of its own on this site! Your advice is very useful, especially for beginner bunch riders like myself. I have reassessed my road cycling after the incident and become more vigilant (even though I thought my years of motorcycling had equipped me pretty well for the dangers of road riding).

I do however think that, as has been suggested previously, it would be great and even more helpful if the club had training for bunch riding as part of Saturday Slowies, say once every 2 months or as demand dictated when slowies are going to step up to Waterfall. Experienced club members could volunteer to take a group 'round Centennial in the same way that a road bunch would function, including calls, lane change procedures etc. Maybe even heading out onto the road as well. I know that the first time I went to Waterfall I had little clue about calls and how the bunch actually worked. Indeed I spent the entire time with my eyes glued to the wheel in front of me to ensure I didn't hit them, something I now know is not good practice! This is something I think needs serious consideration by the club.

A case in point is highlighted by Weiyuns comment about why I called "over" to lead riders who probably should have been doing the move first as the turn lane started. This is where training by more experienced riders would be useful (not that this was a cause of the incident - just wrung procedure). Just reading about bunch riding techniques on the web is not really enough I don't think. Anyway, there's my 2 cents worth.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 30 Apr 2008, 09:39

I thought that our Sat Slowies was meant to provide some bunch training. But obviously with differing abilities, we all pretty much break off once we hit the park. Over the last two Sat I have noticed a bunch being instructed in the park on bunch riding techniques and I believe it was Sydney CC. IIRC, their club entry and bunch ride participation required new members to complete one such course before admission.

I can't call myself experienced and is certainly still learning. And I have no idea on a formal instruction program on this. Going by my experience, apart from reading the various notes on the net, the rest was made up through sitting at the back and observe how others did it. At the end of the day, practice makes it safer. :roll:

As to that "over" call, I think a lot of it would also depend on trust. If the call was made by someone sensible and experienced, then I would not spend as much effort looking behind with a loss of attention to the front. If it was made by someone who I have no experience with, then it's probably wise to take the time and double check. As they say, the lead and end riders are the two with the greatest responsibilities in a bunch, they have to act as the eyes and ears for the whole bunch.

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 30 Apr 2008, 10:12

Too much analysis guys, we all make mistakes and this one appears to be just that.

Glen, good to hear your on the road to recovery.

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williamd
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Postby williamd » 30 Apr 2008, 13:12

Weiyun said

He saw Syney city cycle group training bunch riding at CP.


Last weekend I got on the back of a peleton going to CP fom Brighton. As we approached Anzac Parade two of the riders had a road rage incident and were threatening to fight each other.The less experienced rider then left the peleton to go in a differnt direction to avoid the confrontation.
Apparantly the more experience rider complained that the other rider had cut him off.

I though lucky that I stayed at the rear of the peleton.

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lindsay
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Postby lindsay » 30 Apr 2008, 14:01

I do however think that, as has been suggested previously, it would be great and even more helpful if the club had training for bunch riding as part of Saturday Slowies, say once every 2 months or as demand dictated when slowies are going to step up to Waterfall.
This is a good idea... I'll give it some thought how we can make it happen.

Lindsay

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Postby Gecko » 30 Apr 2008, 21:29

Hi All,

Wow I can't believe how much attention has been generated from Jo's original posting and would like to thank all of those who have wished me well :D

I would really like the opportunity to thank Jo and Stuart for their generosity in allowing me, a total stranger, to ride with them on that day and especially for going back to collect my bike later in the day and dropping it at my home. Thanks heaps guys :D

To clear the air of all theories I will relate here what happened as I had heaps of time to think it over whilst I was in hospital.

I was in between Jo (ahead of me) and Stuart when the time came to change into the right hand lane for the upcoming turn and Stuart made the call. Jo and I both heeded the call and started to move over but unfortunately my 20 years of experience as a motorcyclist made me look over my right shoulder to ensure it was safe to do so, as my head turned forward I found my wheel overlapping Jo's on the right side. I would say that I had slightly increased my speed to complete the lane change and to compensate for turning my head. As I pulled away from Jo's wheel I got a case of the wobbles and in trying to compensate for this I caused my front wheel to “fold”, the result being me coming down in a heap on my right side. I didn't slide down the road as there were no major abrasion marks on my clothing or the bike.

I am still unsure if the bus actually hit me as I tried to scurry off the road in a hurry knowing he was there. Full marks go to the driver for not being a hoon, by not accelerating as soon as we peeled to the right meant he had enough time to break when he saw me wobble.

Lesson learnt: Keep an eye on the wheel in front and let the rider behind you be your eyes at the back.

Cheers,

Glenn (Gecko) :oops:

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FAswad
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Postby FAswad » 01 May 2008, 10:03

Great to hear your 'up and running' again! Hope your recovery is fast. See you on the road soon!

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Stuart
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Postby Stuart » 01 May 2008, 14:06

This is a good idea... I'll give it some thought how we can make it happen.Lindsay
Firstly - Hi Glenn - Great to have you back on deck and hope to see you on a ride soon.

re bunch riding training: This is what Sydney Cycling do (it's even posted twice on the same page, it's that important!)

http://www.sydneycyclingclub.org.au/ind ... 5&Itemid=1

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 01 May 2008, 15:19

Firstly - Hi Glenn - Great to have you back on deck and hope to see you on a ride soon.

re bunch riding training: This is what Sydney Cycling do (it's even posted twice on the same page, it's that important!)

http://www.sydneycyclingclub.org.au/ind ... 5&Itemid=1
Thats a well written document

http://www.sydneycyclingclub.org.au/Etiquette.pdf


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