Two groups to waterfall

[Ljones]

It has been partially solved and very much thought of but the problem of the different pace/abilities of riders going out to water fall on a Sunday morning has become a problem. Currently the situation is for everyone to arrive outside Mick Mazzas before 6:30 am with the slow group leaving at 6:30 am and then the faster group to leave ten minutes later. This has become a problem for a few reasons as I can see it.

One, ten minutes is not enough of a gap for the slow and fast group to meet back at Bobo's at the same time and less importantly there are not enough riders riding with the faster group. Proposed solutions to the first problem are for the faster group to set out significantly later than the slow group or for the faster group to ride out further than Waterfall.

If the times of departure were to be changed, I think a half hour gap between the two groups is necessary with the departure times set at 6:15 for the slowies and 6:45 for the fast group. If the faster group were to go out further than waterfall it has not been discussed as to how much further they would go or what distance is appropriate. Problems with these plans are that during the winter months 6:15 can be rather dark and most of the riders leaving at 6:15 would be setting out from their homes earlier than that. The changed and increased complexity of the leaving times could be confusing for new riders and if one group were to go further than waterfall and another not it could cause confusion at the servo as to who has left and who is yet to arrive.

These are just my thoughts as well as what I have listen to this morning at the café. Any ones thoughts on the situation are good as the current situation we have isn’t quite good enough.

Cheers, Llewellyn Jones.

[mikesbytes]

Hi Llewellyn,

Some good thoughts.

I feel that the real issue is how long we have to wait at Sutherland servo in Winter, it gets cold.

The problem with a 1/2 hour time difference is that it makes it impossible for the slow riders to migrate to the faster group. With the current 10 minutes, the migrating riders can sit in on the fast group and then jump to the slow group when it is caught, or if dropped later can rely on there being a slow group which will catch up to them.

A small fast group is not a problem as with less riders it just means that the participating fast riders do more turns on the front and the average speed is a little less accordingly. Even if there were only 2 fast riders with some intermediate riders, the 2 fast riders could work the front all the way. Personally I don't see a small fast group as an issue.

Cheers, Mike.

[weiyun]

A few points.

- The primary aim of the Sun ride is training (I guess some are just going for the coffee), so I am not sure that the arrival time at Bobos should be the primary determinant.

- The present time gap was designed to permit the fast group to catch the slow group before the hills, where some new riders joining the fast group are likely to get dropped. But the fact that they get dropped by the fast group at that points means that they can rejoin the slow group for the rest of the ride. In other words, the slow group has the sweep function.

- A number of riders need to get home ASAP to resume Sunday family duties after the ride. Early start and early finish is the priority.

- Numbers in the faster group is down today due to a number of other commitments this weekend.

- Late start would mean more riding in the heat and sun come the warmer months, increasing the risk of skin cancer.

[Simon Llewellyn]

The fast bunch did catch the slower bunch rather quickly this morning. Personally I think its just a training ride, since I don't expect that I will ever have much to do with the slower bunch it doesn't really bother me what they do. But it does seem logical that there's some kind of gap if the bunches are to leave different times and want to meet up at the servo or Bestic street. I don't really see the point of waiting at the servo and then re-waiting at Bestic street if it's like a half hour gap particularly if the slower bunch are just wanting to ride slowly with no pressure to get back in any particular time frame...

[othy]

I think the fast bunch should only wait long enough to give anyone who was part of that bunch and dropped a small amount of time to catch up. So for example -

- If you were dropped coming back from Waterfall when the pace picks up, you're probably only ~5 minutes behind.

- The same could be said if you are dropped going along The Grand Parade.

I don't think they should be waiting for the slow bunch. Anyone who gets dropped significantly enough will know the slow bunch is coming and can wait if they like or ride by themselves. They are probably experienced enough to decide.

I guess this comes from my experience as someone who is in between at the moment.

When I started out I would get dropped on the Kingsway when riding with the fast group. When I went out with the slowies and then hopped on the back of the fast group when the passed, guess where I was dropped - on the Kingsway. It made no significant difference leaving earlier and riding slower.

I'd be more inclined to see everyone start together and have someone more experienced drop off with the first rider to fall. They can then sweep anyone up along the way. The first rider is likely to make it further then the slow bunch would before being caught and get a better workout for it. It pushes you harder and gives you better goals to try and achieve, like making it further each week.

[weiyun]

The fast bunch did catch the slower bunch rather quickly this morning...

Actually, I thought the place where we caught them was just perfect, just before the first significant hill. In the past, we've caught them before Capt Cook Br and that's too early.

[T-Bone]

I was busy sleeping this morning, but generally i don't think numbers are an issue, as they're always going to change, and as mike said even 2 riders can sit on the front the whole distance, just at a slightly reduced speed.

Changing the distance has been discussed before, and the only suitable point for adding distance would be Helensburgh, but that also brings the issues of people wanting to change from the slow to the fast group.

The issue with waiting too long for people is you really get cold in winter, especially when you start riding again and the sweat has cooled down against your skin.

I really think it's going to take a little while before we reach the perfect balance.

[weiyun]

Changing the distance has been discussed before, and the only suitable point for adding distance would be Helensburgh, but that also brings the issues of people wanting to change from the slow to the fast group.

This one is easy. People have the choice of turning back at Waterfall and wait at 7-11 if they want.

[fenn_paddler]

It has been partially solved and very much thought of but the problem of the different pace/abilities of riders going out to water fall on a Sunday morning has become a problem. Currently the situation is for everyone to arrive outside Mick Mazzas before 6:30 am with the slow group leaving at 6:30 am and then the faster group to leave ten minutes later. This has become a problem for a few reasons as I can see it.

One, ten minutes is not enough of a gap for the slow and fast group to meet back at Bobo's at the same time and less importantly there are not enough riders riding with the faster group. Proposed solutions to the first problem are for the faster group to set out significantly later than the slow group or for the faster group to ride out further than Waterfall.

If the times of departure were to be changed, I think a half hour gap between the two groups is necessary with the departure times set at 6:15 for the slowies and 6:45 for the fast group. If the faster group were to go out further than waterfall it has not been discussed as to how much further they would go or what distance is appropriate. Problems with these plans are that during the winter months 6:15 can be rather dark and most of the riders leaving at 6:15 would be setting out from their homes earlier than that. The changed and increased complexity of the leaving times could be confusing for new riders and if one group were to go further than waterfall and another not it could cause confusion at the servo as to who has left and who is yet to arrive.

These are just my thoughts as well as what I have listen to this morning at the café. Any ones thoughts on the situation are good as the current situation we have isn’t quite good enough.

Cheers, Llewellyn Jones.

Yesterday worked out ok with the 10 min gap; I don't think there's any probem as such. No solution will suit 100% of the punters 100% of the time.

The faster bunch was big enough, I got home at 9:30 which I like as it means there is still a full day remaining despite having done the bike ride, and we didn't wait too long at 7-11 for the legs to stiffen up. A bigger gap might be good, but I don't think people would turn up for a 6:15 start (inevitaby, stragglers will miss the first bus and end up catching the later express, thereby changing the dynamics of that group).

Cheers,
Alan

[simon.sharwood]

Another possibility is a shorter ride for the slowies.
As a bloody slow, unfit and lazy rider, Waterfall knocks me around for the whole day. So while I need to train, the last thing I want to do is "train" other people to hang around a 7-11!
Perhaps a slow group could look at a 70km ride or so and work as a bunch to build towards getting faster for Waterfall.
M'ville-Kurnell-Sutherland (meet fast bunch)-M'ville could be an option, but of course Kurnell lacks any real hills.
Any other ideas?

[mikesbytes]

Simon, if your struggling to keep on the back of the slow group, you can cut short the mad mile by chucking a u-ie at Heathcoat.

The preference is that everyone does the same route and for those that are still building to the challenge, they can cut the ride short somewhere between Sutherland servo and Waterfall.

If your with the slow group then keep going.

At the end of the day, it's us fasties who will make the decision as to what to do with our spare time.

[weiyun]

Another possibility is a shorter ride for the slowies.
As a bloody slow, unfit and lazy rider, Waterfall knocks me around for the whole day. So while I need to train, the last thing I want to do is "train" other people to hang around a 7-11!
Perhaps a slow group could look at a 70km ride or so and work as a bunch to build towards getting faster for Waterfall.

Shorter rides are everywhere and can be customised to anyone's content. As noted, many of the riders from the other bunches turn around at the 7-11 in Sutherland and there's nothing to stop anyone from doing that. Or just turn around at any point along the route.

I remember my first ride with the club, Lindsay had us turn around well before Waterfall. With all the post-ride aches and pain, it was two weeks before I could come back for another one. And it took a further 3 months before my body got used to the Sun morning Waterfall ride. For a while, my inability to do anything more on a Sun was creating family tension. So just work on it, it's just another fitness challenge.

At the end of the day, you just have to ride the hills to get faster and stronger, and as others have said, don't worry about the fast group as riders of that group can take care of themselves.

[jimmy]

While the idea of having the two groups is appealing. I think that the fast group should be ahead of the slow group.

This way, if you want to try your luck with the fast group, and you can't hang on, you can drop back to the slower group.

I think of Weiyun's idea of the slower group turning earlier is a good one.

On the other hand, I think at times that I should stay out of this discussion. Whenever I occasionally ride with the regular Sunday group to Waterfall, I often end up turning the Fast Group into a Warp Speed Group, and as a result spread them all over the road.

I know that this is over the top, but what about 3 groups?

The regular faster group, does the full run to Waterfall at a fair pace.

The other group rides as one to Sutherland, where some peel off to return to Marrickville, and the rest continue on to say Heathcote where they turn around.

This way, there is a short and long slower group, that way the short Sunday group could be a good step up from the Saturday Group. People can then step up to the run to Heathcote, and then when people are feeling adventurous, they can ride with the fast group, knowing that there is a fall back until they get to Heathcote. And even if they get dropped after that, they can still turn around early.

James

[weiyun]

While the idea of having the two groups is appealing. I think that the fast group should be ahead of the slow group.

This way, if you want to try your luck with the fast group, and you can't hang on, you can drop back to the slower group.

Unfortunately for this past Sunday, the fast group dropped a rider somewhere along The Grande Pde (on a Klein bike). By the time we realised, we couldn't even see him. I am not sure if he managed to tack onto the slow bunch at his own pace or what happened later.

I think what's been happening up to this point is, if you are going to ride with the fast group, then you need to be able to manage yourself should you get dropped. If you have a mechanical, then the bunch would stop with you. So on this basis, I don't think a 3rd group is required. At the end of the day, most of us are treating this as a training ride, and drafting is just lowering the potential training benefits of this ride.

[mikesbytes]

I know that this is over the top, but what about 3 groups?

I think it is evolving that way. The fast group is the same group it always has been, where an intermediate group is evolving out of the slow group, as some riders get quicker and also the slow group is getting slower.

This is what I see;

Fast 31kph + (Business as usual)

Medium 29 - 30kph (like Stuart and Joanne + others)

Slow 26 - 28

At the moment there probably isn't enough riders to have a Medium and Slow, but I'd bet there will be enough Sunday riders next summer.

[mikesbytes]

Unfortunately for this past Sunday, the fast group dropped a rider somewhere along The Grande Pde (on a Klein bike)

At the end of the day, while doing our best, we cannot baby sit everyone who tries out the fast group.

What we should make clear is that we will be doing 35kph + on The Grand Pde. So they will need to prepared to sit in until we catch the slow group.

[simon.sharwood]

I think we need twelve groups.
1 = Fast
2 = Fixie riders
3 = Bike is more than 50% carbon
4 = Fast latte drinkng softies
5 = Intermediate
6 = Intermediate hard-assed long black drinkers
7 = Intermediates with triples who never use the third chainring because they have outgrown it
8 = Intermediates who still bludge on the third chainring sometimes
9 = Slow
10 = Slow and lazy
11 = Slow teenagers (who need to ride separately so they do not embarass slow adults
12 = Slow and old, eating donuts while they ride

Anyone think we need any more groups?

S.

[mikesbytes]

Hi Simon,

I fit into 3 categories;
1 = Fast
7 = triples who never use the third chainring
12 = Old

[weiyun]

At the end of the day, while doing our best, we cannot baby sit everyone who tries out the fast group.

What we should make clear is that we will be doing 35kph + on The Grand Pde. So they will need to prepared to sit in until we catch the slow group.

The unfortunate issue on Sunday was that we were hitting 40-41kph on The Grand Pde on the way down. Pretty nasty even at the back. And the slow group was still quite a few km ahead ie. Nothing to drop back to.

[weiyun]

I think we need twelve groups.
1 = Fast
2 = Fixie riders

In our club, the fixie riders tend to be THE fast leader... Until JamesC comes along.

[mikesbytes]

40kph is 35kph +, especially when the wind is in our favour.

Another way to put it is that any rider trying out for the fast group should be fast enough to catch the slow group on their own steam.

[weiyun]

Another way to put it is that any rider trying out for the fast group should be fast enough to catch the slow group on their own steam.

Don't disagree with that.

[simon.sharwood]

Hi Simon,

I fit into 3 categories;
1 = Fast
7 = triples who never use the third chainring
12 = Old

You need three bikes, three clones and three personalities.
Either than or we need another group for people who fit into more than one group.

[mikesbytes]

For a while I had the habit of leaving after the ride started and chasing. One thing I noticed was the number of times I stopped to assist a rider who was at the side of the road with a flat or mechanical. It seems that some riders have the ability to stealth off the back of the group.

[mikesbytes]

You need three bikes, three clones and three personalities.
Either than or we need another group for people who fit into more than one group.

Last time I rode with James, only 3 riders made it to Waterfall with him, all 3 were over 40

[weiyun]

For a while I had the habit of leaving after the ride started and chasing. One thing I noticed was the number of times I stopped to assist a rider who was at the side of the road with a flat or mechanical. It seems that some riders have the ability to stealth off the back of the group.

We were expecting you to do the same again yesterday but you never showed. Pretty pathetic effort there!

PS. Don't give us excuses that every muscle in your body cramped up.

[mikesbytes]

Rode to Waterfall on Friday. Typical cross trainer - double booked.

[simon.sharwood]

It seems that some riders have the ability to stealth off the back of the group.

"Stealth off the back?"
Oooh I like that.
I'm not slow any more.
But I am very good at stealthing off the back!



S.

[T-Bone]

We're missing the ultimate categorie. Fast, eating donuts while they ride!!!

[mikesbytes]

eating donuts

The police had set up an RBT on the mad mile on Friday.

[weiyun]

The police had set up an RBT on the mad mile on Friday.

Imagine a large bunch of cyclists crashing into one of those police RBT team at 70kph...

[T-Bone]

I doubt it was on the actual mad mile, which is the section from the last traffic lights before Sutherland until you leave the highway, as there isn't really a safe spot for an RBT there. I'm guessing it was somewhere on the way back from waterfall, most likely heathcote where the speed limit is lower.

[eric]

quote="weiyun"]Unfortunately for this past Sunday, the fast group dropped a rider somewhere along The Grande Pde (on a Klein bike)[/quote]

The rider on the Orange Klein bike is Mr Colin . He did some hard driving work at the front with Simon along The Grande Parade. He was in the red zone,wasn’t able to recover and was dropped. He eventually caught the Sunday Slowies bunch at Engadine .

[weiyun]

The rider on the Orange Klein bike is Mr Colin . He did some hard driving work at the front with Simon along The Grande Parade. He was in the red zone,wasn’t able to recover and was dropped. He eventually caught the Sunday Slowies bunch at Engadine .

Yes, he rode hard with Simon and vanished soon after that. Did you manage to stay with the bunch? I forgot that you also joined us near the velodrome. I guess we have all learnt to not drive too hard and for too long at the front, or risk getting dropped at short notice.

[mikesbytes]

I doubt it was on the actual mad mile, which is the section from the last traffic lights before Sutherland until you leave the highway, as there isn't really a safe spot for an RBT there. I'm guessing it was somewhere on the way back from waterfall, most likely heathcote where the speed limit is lower.

It was on the section where they recently sealed over the pot holes, before the 50k zone on the way back.

I thought the whole section was labled the mad mile?

[weiyun]

Gosh, after all this time, people have different definitions on the "Mad Miles"? We need to review all our past discussions on this subject.

[williamd]

Hey Mike.

I bet you know where the mad kilometre is at Oatley Park.

You almost made it to 3rd place.

[Trouty]

This is what I see;
Fast 31kph + (Business as usual)
Medium 29 - 30kph (like Stuart and Joanne + others)
Slow 26 - 28

Correction - Stuart is 26-27kph and Jo is 27-28.9kph average - but thanks Mike for assuming we both average 30. I'm happy for people to think that!

As a constant slowie, I don't think the fast people need to wait at Sutherland or Bestic St. Although it is nice to see their faces at the cafe/Sutho - we will just have to get used to viewing their behinds as they ride past, otherwise the wait is too long for them. There is enough slowies/medium slowies at the moment to make a decent group for the Sunday ride. As long as some one in the slowies group ensures they wait for the "Last man/women" at Sutho and Bestic we should be OK. This person shouldn't always be Lindsay...but at least determined before the slowies leave for the ride. As a person used to being at the back - I think it's always good to know some one is waiting for you, especially if you are a new comer to the DHBC ride.

On Sunday the slowies group was fairly fast, with some people getting dropped within the slow group, as happens in the fast group also. I think the fasties should sort themselves out, and the slowies do the same.

Otherwise - takes Simons suggestion - 10 groups!!

[T-Bone]

I thought the whole section was labled the mad mile?

Nah, the mad mile is the section after the last set of lights where the pace can pick up even more. I'd say it wouldn't be too far off 1mile in distance, though i'd have to check that one day.

[mikesbytes]

Correction - Stuart is 26-27kph and Jo is 27-28.9kph average - but thanks Mike for assuming we both average 30. I'm happy for people to think that!

As a constant slowie, I don't think the fast people need to wait at Sutherland or Bestic St. Although it is nice to see their faces at the cafe/Sutho - we will just have to get used to viewing their behinds as they ride past, otherwise the wait is too long for them. There is enough slowies/medium slowies at the moment to make a decent group for the Sunday ride. As long as some one in the slowies group ensures they wait for the "Last man/women" at Sutho and Bestic we should be OK. This person shouldn't always be Lindsay...but at least determined before the slowies leave for the ride. As a person used to being at the back - I think it's always good to know some one is waiting for you, especially if you are a new comer to the DHBC ride.

On Sunday the slowies group was fairly fast, with some people getting dropped within the slow group, as happens in the fast group also. I think the fasties should sort themselves out, and the slowies do the same.

Otherwise - takes Simons suggestion - 10 groups!!

I was talking about next summer, I'll stand by the quoted speeds as I assume that you and Stuart ain't gunna slack off over winter.

[Stuart]

First up thanks Mike but talking me up won't make it so !

I was the one slow rider that got dropped on Sun after turning at Waterfall (Pete was just bludging!) - no legs after having done Waterfall on Sat as well but I knew the group would be waiting at the Servo at Sutherland.

As a recent Waterfall slowie rider (I started in Jan) I think that it should just continue as is - 6:30 start for slowies and the fast group can do as they please - it's their training ride. The slow group is great for building confidence in bunch riding and good for getting your fitness up and I would like to see it continue to do the full 80k's. Some days I'm almost 28kph's and others I'm struggling for 26kph average but it's all good! Let's just enjoy the riding and we'll see the fast guys at the servo or Bobo's or .... not.

From where I sit it seems the club may be evolving from a pure race focused club into a more diverse & mixed group of members - lets just go with it.

Oh, & Jo & I are up for Waterfall on Sat 3rd May 'cause we can't make Sun 4th. Message us if you are a starter - that means anyone BTW

[weiyun]

From where I sit it seems the club may be evolving from a pure race focused club into a more diverse & mixed group of members - lets just go with it.

Funny that, I was just chatting with Bucko from RBCC whilst riding towards Waterfall on Sun and he said that it's good to see that DHBC is getting more race focused.

[othy]

Funny that, I was just chatting with Bucko from RBCC whilst riding towards Waterfall on Sun and he said that it's good to see that DHBC is getting more race focused.

I wonder if one feeds into the other. I only started to get fit and have just done my first race.

[mikesbytes]

Funny that, I was just chatting with Bucko from RBCC whilst riding towards Waterfall on Sun and he said that it's good to see that DHBC is getting more race focused.

What's happening is that the club is experiencing growth, which includes the racing contingency and that is what Bucko sees.

The diverse mix of riders the club has is giving it some great dynamics.

[weiyun]

What's happening is that the club is experiencing growth, which includes the racing contingency and that is what Bucko sees.

The diverse mix of riders the club has is giving it some great dynamics.

Agreed. Bucko also said that RBCC is also putting on a few more non-racing rides to increase the variety.

Great time for cycling.

[timyone]

ok i choose not to read the rest of this thread, but would like to make the grand announcement that i may grace the slow group with my presents
I may not actually read any responces to this how ever, as i assume that there is a conversation going on that im cutting in on, and that people will completeley, and rightly ignore me and my spelling