Input sought on future club apparels

[weiyun]

Hi all,

Now that we have opened the club stock of jersey for general sale, it's time to look ahead. There are a number of questions on future orders that need your input.

1) Skinsuit: Questions have been posted to the trackies and time trialists in a separate thread.

2) Jerseys (women's cut): Are they ladies happy with full length front zip? This issue was noted and it'll be up to you ladies to decide on the preference. The club can not do mixed orders due to cost inefficiency.

3) Windvest: For our next item within the club apparel line and in preparation for winter, we have a choice of mesh back or full back with 3 external pockets (just like the jersey). The full back model is around $10 more while the mesh back is a little cooler with the back vented but lacks direct access to pockets. Both are constructed with single layer wind proof material ie. Not thermal vests. Any preference?

4) Any other comments on our current apparels (jersey, skinsuit)?

Fire away and this is your opportunity to shape our future wardrobe. I will start a new thread on our winter order in the coming week.

[timyone]

i only care about the wind vest, and i dont think i want mesh back, though im not sure. I only want one for winter riding when its too cold to actually ride, though i dont know if the back matters and we then get too hot.

[othy]

My preference would be for a mesh back wind vest. I'd love to see some socks in the future.

[weiyun]

I'd love to see some socks in the future.

Without giving any prompt, how much are you willing to pay for a pair of club socks? I know how much we can get them for but am not sure if there's a sufficient market at that price. So your and others' responses may move it higher in our list of priorities. This is effectively a market survey so your response is important.

The basic strategy at this point is to progressively build up a club apparel fund that allows us to maintain a standing stock and make sufficiently large orders to achieve the needed volume discount. The higher we build the fund, the greater the range and options we'll have in due course, and any spare income stream will be able to support other club initiatives.

[Stuart]

Windvest: My vote is for full back with pockets as I really need the pockets - it's a pain to try to reach through the hole in a wind vest to get to the stuff you want in your jersey underneath.

I'd like to add T-Shirts: I have a quote from Tee Junction for front and back printing as outlined elsewhere. This would be for the full DHBC Logo (DHBC inside circles with black outline) and wording i.e. DULWICH HILL BICYCLE CLUB in all caps on the front (just like our new jerseys) and the DHBC logo and website on the back (just like our jerseys) but without the 100 years .... piece. Expected cost is < $30 each.

Tee Junction have mens and womens cut t-shirts. They also do kids sizes.

I think there is demand for these so we can have a colour co-ordinated cheer squad at races; partners, lovers and parents can show their support and just to get our name out there generally. I'd like to see them added to the club clothing line. I'm prepared to fund them if we don't have the dollars to do it cause I'm going to order at least a few to start with, regardless. Quote I have is for a run of 40.

[othy]

Without giving any prompt, how much are you willing to pay for a pair of club socks? I know how much we can get them for but am not sure if there's a sufficient market at that price. So your and others' responses may move it higher in our list of priorities. This is effectively a market survey so your response is important.

It is a question fraught with danger - how much would I pay for a pair of socks? Would people consider me obscene for listing what I would actually pay for a pair, or would I be giving you a false impression of what is reasonable - am I even a reasonable person. I guess my measuring stick would be how much are a quality pair of cycling socks from a top brand (....capo, rapha, assos, defeet) going to cost and would I pay that for a club pair.

[weiyun]

It is a question fraught with danger - how much would I pay for a pair of socks? Would people consider me obscene for listing what I would actually pay for a pair, or would I be giving you a false impression of what is reasonable - am I even a reasonable person. I guess my measuring stick would be how much are a quality pair of cycling socks from a top brand (....capo, rapha, assos, defeet) going to cost and would I pay that for a club pair.

I will not use it to judge you as a person.

But taking SCC's price on socks at $20 a pair, I suspect we'll have a hard time moving 100 units which I understand is the lowest quantity per order. Personally I don't do Assos socks so have no ideas of their price. So your input on value is important here. I think we'll get to club socks at some point but not just yet unless there's consensus through these discussions. The current priority is to build on jersey/windvest/skinsuit and bib may follow.

[weiyun]

I'd like to add T-Shirts:... I think there is demand for these... Quote I have is for a run of 40.

As long as it doesn't divest the funds allocated to our formal gears at this stage.

From my perspective, the main focus will be to build up an apparel fund for the club that can relieve us from seeking prepayments from members before each order. So if you think the T-Shirt project can significantly contribute to the fund, then I am all for it too.

[christian]

I vote for a bib. Although this could be a difficult one as everyone has their favorite brand. I was also going to move along to getting some caps made once we break even with the bidons, so if you want caps, buy bidons, they are always available down at the track on Monday and Wednesday nights.

[othy]

As long as it doesn't divest the funds allocated to our formal gears at this stage.

From my perspective, the main focus will be to build up an apparel fund for the club that can relieve us from seeking prepayments from members before each order. So if you think the T-Shirt project can significantly contribute to the fund, then I am all for it too.

What is the rationale behind building an inventory? Do we have any statistics on how many members join (or crash & detroy a their jersey) a month? Was the pre-payment a significant factor in the time it took for the last order? I didn't find the pre-payment to be an unreasonable request and would be happy to do it for future orders.

Or is this so we can get a better deal on item price by ordering larger quantities once per year and holding it until sold?

As for the socks, with such a large minium quantity I agree that it doesn't look viable at this point. There are probably better items to be looking at (wind vests) for the next order.

[Toff]

We need knicks before socks. I like a bib knick too.

[weiyun]

I vote for a bib. Although this could be a difficult one as everyone has their favorite brand.

The chamois in the skinsuits are Nalini's top of the line model. So you guys can provide good feedback on their quality. Should we move to bibs, it'll have the same construction and we'll know exactly what we are getting.

Bibs are definitely in discussion at the moment and there are some additional matters that the executives have to sort out. Otherwise I'd like to see the bib be our next "new" item after windvests and be part of the 2010 summer order around mid-year.

[othy]

I vote for a bib. Although this could be a difficult one as everyone has their favorite brand. I was also going to move along to getting some caps made once we break even with the bidons, so if you want caps, buy bidons, they are always available down at the track on Monday and Wednesday nights.

I think the choice of your own bib is a great advantage to having plain black as the uniform. I would hate to see this change.

EDIT: I will wear a skinsuit to tonights training to test the chamois - but once again you are now competing with high quality products (as listed before...mmm assos bibs).

[weiyun]

What is the rationale behind building an inventory? Do we have any statistics on how many members join (or crash & detroy a their jersey) a month? Was the pre-payment a significant factor in the time it took for the last order? I didn't find the pre-payment to be an unreasonable request and would be happy to do it for future orders.

Or is this so we can get a better deal on item price by ordering larger quantities once per year and holding it until sold?

The rationales are,

- Every new member wants a club jersey for instant gratification and is evidence of our club's attitude to membership.

- Prepayment may not be an issue for an individual but is a huge amount of work for us in the back room. Given the prepayment, the pressure was on us to deliver without any error. And then there's all the chasing around for delayed payment/EFT and verifications. There were 60-70 individual payments that Marian and myself had to verify and reconcile in the last order, along with the size and number of the article. Ideally we want to do away with prepayment completely or at least minimised to those specialty low volume items. But coming back to reality, we'll need to continue to ask for prepayments on newly introduced item (eg. Windvest) and others in the short-medium term.

- One massive order a year would give us far greater margins on each item than 2 orders. So the bigger we can build each order the better it is for the club. Even though current club returns are still being used to build our kitty fund, I envision in the med-longer term, the revenue stream can be used to supplement other initiatives within the club.

So hope these answered your question.

[weiyun]

I think the choice of your own bib is a great advantage to having plain black as the uniform. I would hate to see this change.

EDIT: I will wear a skinsuit to tonights training to test the chamois - but once again you are now competing with high quality products (as listed before...mmm assos bibs).

That's clearly recognised and I for one has been quite sensitive to my bottom side.

But I think if we can be comfortable with Nalini's quality, then it can be a good option for a good number of members and know quite a number are keen on them. Time will tell.

[othy]

That's clearly recognised and I for one has been quite sensitive to my bottom side.

But I think if we can be comfortable with Nalini's quality, then it can be a good option for a good number of members and know quite a number are keen on them. Time will tell.

If the bibs exist then I would feel compelled (if not obligated) to race in them - and if they are not the perfect knicks I'm not sure if I'd be happy being forced to do this. The accessibility of plain black knicks also caters to everyones budget. It has now taken a $100 uniform and made it a $200+ uniform for racing. Accessibility to racing has been one of the clubs strong points during its growth over the time I have been a member.

[weiyun]

If the bibs exist then I would feel compelled (if not obligated) to race in them - and if they are not the perfect knicks I'm not sure if I'd be happy being forced to do this. The accesability of plain black knicks also caters to everyones budget. It has now taken a $100 uniform and made it a $200+ uniform for racing.

I agree and they are all valid points. I think this issue will need to be decided at the executive level and as already mentioned, this bib issue is already with the execs. Until their resolution, it won't filter down to my spreadsheet for order consideration. We'll see.

[Manny]

a supply of knicks would be great. What's the difference to skinsuit to knicks? My interpretation of a skinsuit is that it is a one piece. Please correct me if I'm wrong

[HOP]

I think this issue will need to be decided at the executive level and as already mentioned, this bib issue is already with the execs.

Hi
Are the executives close to a decision? Or is it waiting for a snowball.

[mikesbytes]

Spoke to Simon LLL this evening, he said there is a Nalini pad that's thicker than the one in the skin suits. Can we confirm whether there is a thicker pad?

As I go thru upto 4 sets of lyca a day, you can be assured that I will buy some of the knicks

[weiyun]

Spoke to Simon LLL this evening, he said there is a Nalini pad that's thicker than the one in the skin suits. Can we confirm whether there is a thicker pad?

Will ask to confirm.

[geoff m]

Its good to get a feel for demand for general bib knicks. We won't be able to sort this out before the next order which we want to get underway ASAP.

Weiyun is right. Prepayment has been great to get the funds and accuracy correct up front. But its a real hassle for everyone, and adds to delays. So our intent is for the club to directly purchase and fund upfront sometime very near in the future.

We've all agreed at this stage that we are happy with our jersey and the evolution of the design. We are not keen to complicate the design with sponsorship.

We don't however have bib knicks, although the standard black ones bought in any shop substitutes almost perfectly, and has done so for probably 102 years.

We can introduce bib knicks with DHBC logo on the side as per the skin suits. A previous club AGM discussed this option and the ability to also put sponsorship on the backside of the bib knicks which is a prime position for cars behind.

There are a couple of options in this regard we are exploring. It would considerably help the club as well. Chamois would have to be close to top of the range, and riding these for official events such as races would be required. Given that Knicks wear out regularly, this is perfect for sponsorship, so we don't have the risk of getting sponsorship on jerseys which may last for years and years, long after sponsors have moved on or changed.

Just to give you all a heads up of how the bib knicks are being considered. Hoping we can be in a position to order these soon, but not for the next round of orders.

[christian]

One would hope the chamois is the bibs would be better then that in the skinsuit. The skinsuit is fine for track racing but I wouldn't want to do 100kms on a rough surface in it. Its a bit thin.

[wallman]

Since we've been asked, here's my 2 cents on the club clothing:
Skinsuit: In response to Weiyun's question about the long sleeve option being hot in summer, yes it is, but I suspect that's because it's skintight and doesn't really let the torso get any breeze rather than being due the having enclosed forearms. I'd be surprised if the short sleeve versions were cooler at the Xmas Carnivals but I don't have one so don't know for sure. I'd like to see the pocket retained - it's practical for road events and having it there when it's not in use doesn't really impact on the suit.
I'd be surprised if the pad is Nalini's best.
Jersey: I don't like the full zip aesthetically or functionally. A hidden zip might address the first point and a half zip the second. Maybe if I'm doing hors categorie climbs in a French summer I might want a full zip but otherwise I find it just bunches the jersey up.
Vest: I'd lean toward a mesh back version.
Knicks: This is not a topic that's likely to reach a consensus opinion. I don't have any in principle objections, but I'd like to see pricing and know more about the club's sponsorship plans before committing either way. I wouldn't be happy buying knicks for racing with the current chamois at any price though.
Socks: Not interested.
Cheerio!

[weiyun]

Thanks for all the feedbacks. Without them whether positive or negative, it makes the job of ordering even harder.

I will explore the issue of chamois and get back to all.

The full zip was well received by most but it is good to know that there are different opinions on it. Will continue to monitor this issue.

[T-Bone]

I was always interested in getting plain black knicks, nothing on the sides, as if you look in most bike shops it's hard to find good quality plain black knicks for a reasonable price (which is why people buy overseas).

The reason for nothing on the sides is it still allows people to choose other brands if they prefer, plus it won't push up the costs for those interested in racing. Basically there's already enough things to pay for with racing than being forced to buy specific knicks, as well as the jersey, licence and entry fees.

If we can get top quality bib knicks for a good price (around $100), then i think it's an option.

As for the other stuff: Vest - mesh back (there's pockets in the jersey), Jersey - Maybe half zip could be an option for a winter order in the future, as a full zip won't be used much during winter, but i don't find it bunches too much compared to other jerseys i've worn, and it does function well.

[T-Bone]

Did a bit of a search on the pads. Seems like the best Nalini bib knicks use either the UCN (Ultra Comfort Nalini) pad or the STP (i think gel version). I believe the skinsuits have PTN1 pads (maybe they're PTN9).

Found something which has several companies pad line. http://www.trentinobikewear.nl/uploads/ ... -zemen.pdf

[weiyun]

As for the other stuff: Vest - mesh back (there's pockets in the jersey), Jersey - Maybe half zip could be an option for a winter order in the future, as a full zip won't be used much during winter, but i don't find it bunches too much compared to other jerseys i've worn, and it does function well.

I've been promised samples of vests in the near future. But just based on current experience with meshed back vest (without zipper pocket) is that it's very difficult to access the 3 jersey pockets trapped within. Will see what Nalini's mesh vest design is in due course.

We are not going to be able to carry different lines of jerseys with different zipper lengths. Each model we carry will require investment in a spread of sizes, thereby divests our limited funds and lose out on volume pricing.

Personally I find the full length to be a major plus for putting it on and off at the start and end of the day. No more sticky tight jersey-skin interface that requires a call to the wife to remove.

[weiyun]

Did a bit of a search on the pads. Seems like the best Nalini bib knicks use either the UCN (Ultra Comfort Nalini) pad or the STP (i think gel version). I believe the skinsuits have PTN1 pads (maybe they're PTN9).

Found something which has several companies pad line. http://www.trentinobikewear.nl/uploads/ ... -zemen.pdf

Thanks James for gathering info on this. Once I get a bit more info I'll contact the distributor to talk about it. Will further advise.

[weiyun]

Given the discussion on the chamois has been concentrated in this thread, here's what I found out.

Chamois:

The last skinsuit order had Nalini's Coolmax chamois and the distributor can offer us two alternatives (UCN Ultra, SGP GEL) in future orders with recommendation for the UCN Ultra. Based on my separate research, that also appeared to be a preferred model by many on the internet and is consistent with JamesF's research.

Let me know if there's any objection to moving to UCN Ultra for the next order. Bear in mind though that most of Nalini's upper end chamois are of mixed microfiber-real leather construction.

UCN Ultra


SGP Gel


Fabric:

On the material front, with comments on the material being "see through". The explanation is that this is a function of a number of factors,

- How thick the material is. Thicker materials are less elastic and less breathable.
- How much stretch. The more you stretch it the thinner the layer eg. Around elbows.
- How the suit was sized. Smaller the size the greater the stretch.
- Base fibre colour. White vs black base material. For our upper body red, it was necessary to use a white base.
- Screen printing. The texture of the fabric may vary with the number of colour layers printed on the base material.

Nalini also has a dimpled material in their line up but it's hardly ever chosen for its significantly higher cost.

[T-Bone]

I don't really think the chamois matters too much for a skinsuit (my opinion), but for bib knicks it would.

[weiyun]

I don't really think the chamois matters too much for a skinsuit (my opinion), but for bib knicks it would.

Thanks. But a decision will still needs to be made in consideration for some of the earlier feedback and potentially carried to the bib (if we ever get there).

So may I assume that you are agreeable to UCN Ultra as the chosen chamois?

[geoffs]

I know this a thread on apparel however I think we need to consider accessories as well.
Sitting here with Michele, Camilla and Marian looking out on the ovens river from our cabin, we have decided that we need floating chairs with beer holders that have the DHBC logo on them.
We were most distressed earlier when we were trying to cool off in the river and didn't have a suitable way of carrying our beers.