New shoes

[Huw]

I'm thinking of getting a new pair of shoes, and would like to get some advice.

I currently wear a pair of entry-level Nikes, which came as part of a kit deal when I bought my bike. They have been good over short to medium distance rides. But in longer or higher intensity rides, I usually get foot pain. In the Grafton it was excruciating at times. Perhaps foot pain is unavoidable on rides of this nature. But I continue to hear stories about people whose feet never suffer, and on the strength of this, and the anticipation that my other shoes will wear out soonish, I'm thinking about getting new ones.

I've tried on Shimano (RH-131) and Specialized (BG Comp). For what it's worth, they both felt quite comfortable to stand in. But the Specialized were a little bit more comfortable, so for that reason, I'm tending to lean toward them. However, the sole had noticeably more flex than the Shimano (which seemed very stiff). Is this a bad thing? Should I consider spending lots more to buy the Specialized BG Pro, whose sole has a "stiffness index of 10.0":??

It seems like a total minefield out there, so I welcome any other comments or suggestions. Thanks!

[weiyun]

Dreaded hot-spot problem I bet. Stiff CF may be the saviour as many people attribute the problem to an inadequate platform. Yet again, Sidi advocates a slight flex towards the toe area on their CF products. But I suspect it'll come down to trial and error for the individual.

[mikesbytes]

It's a tricky topic Huw. The flex you mention doesn't sound that appealing, however a comfortable foot is going to perform better than an uncomfortable foot.

What kind of foot pain to you get and what about your existing shoes causes the pain?

[weiyun]

however a comfortable foot is going to perform better than an uncomfortable foot.

The question is, does stationary comfort equates with comfort at 100km point? I suspect not.

[Adrian E]

I've had allot of problems with shoes as welll.

Interestingly, when I did grafton the first time I had mountain bike shoes on and only had terrible pain over the last 20kms. Last time I was in agony near the top of the climb at 90km. Found out latter that it was more of a cleat placement problem, but eitherway, my road bike shoes tend to give me more pain.

I don't think there simple answers with this issue. Just trial and error and hopefully some good advice at the shop. Or, you could try to find a sports podiatrists who specialises in cycling.

[Simon Llewellyn]

Currently I'm using 3 pairs of shoes. I've got the top of the line shimano shoes just below the mold to your feet model, with the full carbon soles for the track, I have Sidi genius 5.5 shoes for the road I think they are; the ones with carbon plates & I use my old sidi T1 shoes for training in.

The shimano shoes are absolutely brilliant for the track! I don't think Theo Bos would be able to flex those soles. I brought up the question of whether or not they were too stiff for long races with Terry at Rocky point rd cycles & he said cycling is different to walking and you don't need flex for comfort. I'm still not convinced, they are incredibly good racing shoes but whether or not they would be comfortable over long distance???? But I"ve had no reason to test them either...

But onto my road shoes, the sidi genius 5.5's; they have incredibly stiff soles also maybe not as stiff as the whole sole is not carbon just the bit that matters. I bought them from Cheeky monkey & multisport at centenial park with my cervelo & at the time their opinion was that most bike riders wear shoes too small. So they almost seemed a size too big when I bought them & I spent a month or two looking at them and wondering if I wasted my money? Which was a lot of money for shoes!!! But I rode grafton in them & I have never had foot pain whatsoever with them!!!! I absolutely love them now, I often wonder if I should try them on the track. But they are not as secure as the shimanos either in the velcrow/buckle system or in the size/fit but in saying that you would never need the security on the road you need on the track...

But one thing that I will say is that I don't believe it is the size difference between the two shoes even though the Sidi being roomy is a very comfortable shoe and no good for sprinting at all, the shape of the sole is very important. The sidi is a flat sole while the shimano has a raise from the cleat to the heal. I absolutely love the flat sole for long distances, I didn't at first like the shimano sole shape but for sprint events on the track with clipless pedals and double straps it is so secure and stiff that it is just brilliant for converting power to speed. I don't think I could ever complain about how efficient it is or find a more efficient system....

[Huw]

What kind of foot pain to you get and what about your existing shoes causes the pain?

Current pain is located on the outside edge of the foot, around the ball (i.e. just below the toes). From memory, it manifests briefly as numbness, progressing to a burning, sharp pain. It left me with a slight limp for a couple of days after the Grafton. I have noticed that the higher the intensity (i.e. the more pressure through the foot), the greater the pain.

I suppose the pain is caused by the side of the foot being forcefully and repeatedly squashed into the outside wall of the shoe. Perhaps greater support along the foot would spread the impact along the foot, rather than concentrating on the widest part.

[micklan]

http://www.choice.com.au/viewArticle.as ... (archived)

[Um as a side: I'm getting some correct runners for my feet. That is I've "greek" feet (see the link) and have supination. The correct runner for me will hopefully assist in the achilles tendon trouble I've been having. Sorry to confuse the riding shoe choice - it is different in that with jogging the whole body weight is transfered mainly by the shoe].

I have been told that your feet expand a shoe size when you ride.

[T-Bone]

"stiffness index of 10.0":??

Mine measure 11.0!!!

I've had foot pain at times in the past, though to me it's not as a result of the distance riding, but most likely more an alignment issue. Specialized shoes have footbeds which are supposed to help with alignment, so that might be good, as long as the shoes fit right. I'd think soles that were less stiff would cause more problems, by not providing a solid platform for power transfer, so that should be taken into consideration.

I've got some wedges for my speedplays to change the angle of the pedal cleat interface, so i should probably try them out again, but it's hard to know if it's done what you want since you can't see what your ankle looks like from behind (i might need some video taken). My foot pain has really only been on the outside of my right foot, so that's why i've decided it's alignment, but generally when i ride there's no pain.

You could also get some better footbeds for whatever shoes you get.

I've been thinking about getting some heat moldable shoes, possibly Bonts or Lakes, mainly for a better fit for my low volume feet, but i think i'll still need to sort out this alignment issue.

Where on your foot do you get the pain?

You can probably get your alignment checked at a bike shop by getting a bike fit. Hopefully i'll be able to sort my issue out myself, but taking cleats on and off to put wedges in just takes a while, and speedplays have an extra screw to deal with.

[Huw]

Where on your foot do you get the pain?

Current pain is located on the outside edge of the foot, around the ball (i.e. just below the toes). From memory, it manifests briefly as numbness, progressing to a burning, sharp pain. It left me with a slight limp for a couple of days after the Grafton. I have noticed that the higher the intensity (i.e. the more pressure through the foot), the greater the pain.

I suppose the pain is caused by the side of the foot being forcefully and repeatedly squashed into the outside wall of the shoe. Perhaps greater support along the foot would spread the impact along the foot, rather than concentrating on the widest part.

[T-Bone]

Sounds like similar pain to what i've had, with the increased occurance coming at higher intensity.

I'll try to find some time this week to give the wedges another shot and let you know how it goes, though i still wouldn't mind some of those Bonts....

[weiyun]

Current pain is located on the outside edge of the foot, around the ball (i.e. just below the toes). From memory, it manifests briefly as numbness, progressing to a burning, sharp pain. It left me with a slight limp for a couple of days after the Grafton. I have noticed that the higher the intensity (i.e. the more pressure through the foot), the greater the pain...

Being the Australian Penny Champion, maybe you are entitled to consult Steve Hogg and have your fitting assessed by a real pro. If it's a one sided strain, maybe a wedge is required. In relation to the point Simon brought up on heel raise in the sole of the shoes, I understand that Steve Hogg has a view on that where he talked about excessive elevation of the heel would adversely raise the stresses in the plantar fascia and related structures.

[weiyun]

But onto my road shoes, the sidi genius 5.5's; they have incredibly stiff soles also maybe not as stiff as the whole sole is not carbon just the bit that matters.

Correct, that's with composite soles. One model up (6.6) and Ergo 2 have full CF. Even in the full CF sole models, Sidi makes a special point of keeping a tiny bit of flex in the toe area.

[mikesbytes]

Current pain is located on the outside edge of the foot, around the ball (i.e. just below the toes). From memory, it manifests briefly as numbness, progressing to a burning, sharp pain. It left me with a slight limp for a couple of days after the Grafton. I have noticed that the higher the intensity (i.e. the more pressure through the foot), the greater the pain.

I suppose the pain is caused by the side of the foot being forcefully and repeatedly squashed into the outside wall of the shoe. Perhaps greater support along the foot would spread the impact along the foot, rather than concentrating on the widest part.

Huw, don't make any assumptions as to what kind of shoe will solve your problem. You may well find that a stiffer shoe will be better than an softer one, however you need to do plenty of research;
- try on every shoe in town
- cleat position
- do as much research as you can
- special inserts
- something about your seating postion or riding style
- strength inbalances
- flexibility inbalances
- float, perhaps you need zero % float
- are your legs the same lenght
- etc etc

What I'm trying to point out is that there are many things that can cause problems, it isn't necessarily caused where the problem occurs.

[timyone]

ok... the top of this looked a bit girlie, and i dont know about shoes.
sorry just thought id mention that.
umm i should stay out of topics about actual bike stuff as i have no idea hey...

[jimmy]

Shoes...

I think that shoes are like saddles, some people love them, some people loathe them. I use a Shimano Shoe which I have used for about 4 years now, I have no issues with them and I have no immediate plans for replacing them.

Generally, you want a stiff sole for better power transfer, obviously they are more difficult to walk in, but you shouldn't be doing a lot of walking in your cycling shoes anyway.

I have seen Steve Hogg (about 2 weeks ago now), he looked at my feet as well as my cleat position.

He gave me a wedge under each cleat, as well as shims under the left one (my left leg is shorter than my right). He left my right cleat position unchanged, but made some minor movement to my left cleat. As far as the cleat position goes, if you use the axle line on the Look Keo cleats, they are about 2cm further forward than they should be. Moral to the story, the ball of the foot over the axle, isn't a good rule.

The biggest change me made, was he moved me from grey cleats (4.5 degrees float) to red cleats (9 degrees float). This meant that my feet were able to sit in the pedals a lot more comfortably than before. From what I gathered, the only reason you should move to zero degree float, is if you can move the cleat on the shoe to the position that your foot wants to sit on the pedal.

As far as shoes go, I have heard good things about Sidi, and I use Shimano. I think that both brands have a wide enough range that you should be able to get something. As far as getting something comfortable, there is no way I or anyone else can advise you.

James

[Huw]

ok... the top of this looked a bit girlie, and i dont know about shoes.

How about "bloody cycling boots"?

[Huw]

Huw, don't make any assumptions as to what kind of shoe will solve your problem. You may well find that a stiffer shoe will be better than an softer one, however you need to do plenty of research;
- try on every shoe in town
- cleat position
- do as much research as you can
- special inserts
- something about your seating postion or riding style
- strength inbalances
- flexibility inbalances
- float, perhaps you need zero % float
- are your legs the same lenght
- etc etc

What I'm trying to point out is that there are many things that can cause problems, it isn't necessarily caused where the problem occurs.

Yes, agreed. All this stuff is what I was referring to when I said it's a minefield out there. Perhaps it is a bit naive of me to think that I can simply go shopping on a Saturday to get a new pair of shoes (Tim, read not-so-old bloody riding boots). However after a brief hunt around the net, it seems like trying to get objective information is useless. Kind of like trying to decide on a phone or internet plan - everyone's got different "innovations" or special proprietary systems, but there seems to be no way of even comparing basics (e.g. price). To top it off, trying shoes on seems like a useless endeavour since what you really need to do is ride in them.

[Huw]

Shoes...

As far as getting something comfortable, there is no way I or anyone else can advise you.

Quite.

OK, I have a simple question. I actually bought the Specialized BG Comp shoes on Saturday. I didn't want to admit it before in case I seemed too naive and rash. But there you go, I bought them. They cost me $220, or about the equivalent of my first pair of expensive Italian leather hiking boots. When I took them home, I compared them to my entry-level Nikes and noticed that the soles were a lot more flexible that my Nikes. Quite noticeably so. I felt a bit miffed, since I figured a good shoe should have a very stiff sole. I am wondering whether to take them back and fork out the big ones for the proper stiff soles in the BG Pro.

My question is this: shouldn't any good shoe have a stiff sole?

[mikesbytes]

I think the problem with full carbon soles, is that if they don't fit your feet, then there is no tolerance. But if they fit your feet then they are the way to go.

I've got Shimano R151's, which have a full carbon sole and they are much better than the plastic soled ones I had before, where they claimed "optimised flexibility"

Have you considered a wider toe box? Try on the R151's they have a wide toe box.

[weiyun]

It's all about efficiency. Given your size and power, all evidences point to a stiff sole is a must, particularly in areas that count (under your metatarsal bones and heel). The slight flex in Sidi's CF sole design only refers to the tip of the toe area, to assist walking. But everywhere else it's as rigid as it can be. Similar to ski boots, over the foot buckle/velcro is also very important to permit a good fit without cutting off your circulation.

[JM]

Huw - I have Carnac Helium's with CF sole - very stiff - no flex. Wear them on the fixie, road bike, and cyclo cross. Never have foot pain even on the 100, 150 and 200k rides ... they do get smelly sometimes though :)

[Huw]

smelly

That's the sort of face I make when I smell smelly

[mikesbytes]

That's the sort of face I make when I smell smelly

At least its his feet that the smell is coming from.

[fixedgear]

Quite.

OK, I have a simple question. I actually bought the Specialized BG Comp shoes on Saturday. I didn't want to admit it before in case I seemed too naive and rash. But there you go, I bought them. They cost me $220, or about the equivalent of my first pair of expensive Italian leather hiking boots. When I took them home, I compared them to my entry-level Nikes and noticed that the soles were a lot more flexible that my Nikes. Quite noticeably so. I felt a bit miffed, since I figured a good shoe should have a very stiff sole. I am wondering whether to take them back and fork out the big ones for the proper stiff soles in the BG Pro.

My question is this: shouldn't any good shoe have a stiff sole?

Huw, I have the Specialized BG Road Sport which has the same sole as your shoe, but is $60 cheaper and has 3 velcro straps instead of two velcro and the rachet thingy.

I've been very happy with the Specialized' in terms of comfort, I've not had any foot pain or considered the shoes not 'stiff' enough. I should add that have ridden 600 km Audax rides in these shoes with Look Delta 'Red' cleats, so any lack of stiffness impacting negatively should be apparent.

I've just given a few of my shoes the 'flex test' by hand, here is the results from apparent stiffest to least stiff:

Specialized BG Road Sport
Shimano R075
Shimano R061
Diadora something or other.

All have plastic type soles, the Specialized and Shimano are 'stiff' enough for me, the Diadora probably flexs a little more than ideal (but hey, they were $25 off Ebay...).

It's your call, but I think you will be pleasantly surprised how good the Specialized BG Comps are on the bike. Remember too, that before CF soles came along countless TdF's and other races were won on what today would be considered a flexable sole without any footpain or other ill effects.

[fixedgear]

Shoes...

I think that shoes are like saddles, some people love them, some people loathe them. I use a Shimano Shoe which I have used for about 4 years now, I have no issues with them and I have no immediate plans for replacing them.

Generally, you want a stiff sole for better power transfer, obviously they are more difficult to walk in, but you shouldn't be doing a lot of walking in your cycling shoes anyway.

I have seen Steve Hogg (about 2 weeks ago now), he looked at my feet as well as my cleat position.

He gave me a wedge under each cleat, as well as shims under the left one (my left leg is shorter than my right). He left my right cleat position unchanged, but made some minor movement to my left cleat. As far as the cleat position goes, if you use the axle line on the Look Keo cleats, they are about 2cm further forward than they should be. Moral to the story, the ball of the foot over the axle, isn't a good rule.

The biggest change me made, was he moved me from grey cleats (4.5 degrees float) to red cleats (9 degrees float). This meant that my feet were able to sit in the pedals a lot more comfortably than before. From what I gathered, the only reason you should move to zero degree float, is if you can move the cleat on the shoe to the position that your foot wants to sit on the pedal.

As far as shoes go, I have heard good things about Sidi, and I use Shimano. I think that both brands have a wide enough range that you should be able to get something. As far as getting something comfortable, there is no way I or anyone else can advise you.

James

James - clarification re Steve Hoggs 2 cm change with regard to ball of foot over axleline, is SH recommending the bof be 2cm ahead or behind axle line? I'd imagine it (the bof) would have to be ahead of axle line...?

[Huw]

A quick update: I found a new pair of BG Pros on eBay, $150 cheaper than RRP of $399. As Specialized tells us, these shoes have a "stiffness index of 10.0" compared to 7.0 for the BG Comps, whatever that means . . . Anyway, in a fit, I bought them.

It's your call, but I think you will be pleasantly surprised how good the Specialized BG Comps are on the bike. Remember too, that before CF soles came along countless TdF's and other races were won on what today would be considered a flexable sole without any footpain or other ill effects.

Fixedgear, I totally agree with your comments. In some searching, I noticed that aside from some slight marking and colour differences, the current BG Comps look exactly the same as the 2004 BG Pro. But this time I succumbed to my own performance anxiety!:oops:

[mikesbytes]

Impulse shoe shopping.... what a girl

[williamd]

I have a pair of specialized shoes with carbon sole and have had no problem with sore feet.Sore legs all the time especially up hills.
The shoes can also be adjusted while riding and they can be used on track bikes.

[jimmy]

James - clarification re Steve Hoggs 2 cm change with regard to ball of foot over axleline, is SH recommending the bof be 2cm ahead or behind axle line? I'd imagine it (the bof) would have to be ahead of axle line...?

Yes, the ball of my foot is about 2cm forward of the pedal axle.

But, before everyone rushes out and shifts their cleats forward by 2cm, be aware that Steve Hogg did a lot of watching and measuring of me before he was happy with that cleat position. I didn't get an impression that as a rule of thumb, that you should have the ball of your foot, 2cm forward of axle line.

James

[weiyun]

That's just his "arch cleat" philosophy, which he applies pretty much to everyone. There's a bit more write up about it on his site and elsewhere.

http://www.cyclefitcentre.com/pdf%20fin ... _final.pdf

http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id= ... tters05-15

And specifically talking about "hot feet".
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id= ... s07-26#Hot

[mikesbytes]

I hear that shoe forward is good for endurance and shoe backwards is good for sprinting

[weiyun]

I hear that shoe forward is good for endurance and shoe backwards is good for sprinting

I have also read the same. So maybe one should take a middle position b/n the two.

[mikesbytes]

I have also read the same. So maybe one should take a middle position b/n the two.

Or invent adjustable cleats, like gear changing.

[FAswad]

Huw I propose these. "High Heel Platform Shoes sculptured in stailess steel. " STIFF AS!!!

[Huw]

FAswad, that's a great suggestion. I have quite a high arch, so really need a lot of support there. These racing shoes look like they finally provide that. Those straps look super secure, and I'm a fan of the way they've removed them from the top of the foot - no more numbness there! Also, super sturdy, and great for high temperature racing. And stiff as boards. I'll bet these have a stiffness index of 11.0!

[mikesbytes]

Huw, when do you get to test out the new shoes?

[Huw]

I'm waiting for them to arrive - from Jakarta, I think. I was told 1-6 business days. Today is day 3. I have that waiting-for-a-new-toy-in-the-mail thrill whenever I walk into the tea room (where the mail pigeon holes are).

[Toff]

Since cycling in high heels might be a bit dangerous, here's a more snazzy model:



(Click picture for story...)

[mikesbytes]

There was a woman who use to ride over ANZAC bridge every day in high heals and they were as high as the black/pink ones but more chunky