New bunch arrangement for Waterfall

[christian]

Last Sunday the Cruisers bunch was so large that Lindsay had to split it into two bunches. As this ride is becoming more popular we are going to have to split it up from the start. We have tried to do this before with the "coached" and "tempo" labeling. This time we are going to make it much more obvious, its going to be "Cruisers 25" and "Cruisers 28".

As the names imply they have average speeds of 25km/h and 28km/h. If you are one of those people that can't help driving the pace up when you are on the front, and you all know who you are, then you belong in the 28 group. If you are a boarder line rider then you can roll out with the 28 group and be swept up by the 25 group if you get dropped. The Cruisers is a no drop bunch as is the Middies. What this will enable is for riders that are really struggling in the 28 bunch the ability to get dropped and collected by the 25 bunch.

The 25's and 28's can roll out at the same time or close to the same time. So the times stay the same, Cruisers at 6.20am, Middies at 6.30am and Fasties at 6.40am (or when we get tired of waiting for James).

This coming Sunday will be the first run with this arrangement and I'll be down at MMs at the start to make sure it gets away properly.

As Lindsay will not be able to ride this week I need two of the coaches to put there hands up and say they will run the two cruisers bunches. This is preferably coaches that usually ride with these bunches.

If the Middies bunch becomes unmanagable then something similar will have to be implemented. It has been suggested that your moving up in the bunches is to be determined by the coaches once you are at the right level. If something like this was to be implemented then you may get forced up if you continue to push the pace when you shouldn't be, again you people know who you are.

Just to remind you all all the bunches except the fasties should ride to an average speed. That being 25km/h and 28km/h for the two cruisers bunches and 30km/h for the middies. The fasties can do what they want, but be warned, if you are a fast middie and you feel like the challenge they can average 34km/h and if you get dropped you're on your own.

Comments and feedback are welcome.

[weiyun]

The fasties can do what they want...

I ask again, why is there this elitist differential treatment?

As a club, shouldn't DHBC have a formed bunch for every speed level? If RBCC/East/SCC can do it, why can't we?

The fact that there's no "rules" for the "fasties" is also the reason why many middies riders aren't interested/comfortable in moving to that group. Shouldn't the "fasties" also show some kindness and assist middies riders who want to move up to the next tier, as middies do for cruisers? Otherwise the rule should be open to all bunches and allow C-25 bunch to be the sweep for all. Of course, the bunches will have pass C-25 first.

[christian]

We are not trying to be elitist and there are rules. The reason for not set speed is that this bunch is highly variable. Sometimes there are only 4 riders, so the speed of this bunch is mainly set by who is there on the day. In tihs bunch you are expected to do a turn on the front, even if it is a short turn that way you have at least made an effort. There should be no half wheeling on the front as with the other bunches. In reality the average speed is usually around 32km/h but it has been known to go over 34km/h.

We encourage middies to move up, but as this is a training ride if you blow up in the first 20kms we are not going to slow the bunch down. I think we have all been dropped by this bunch at some point in time, I know I have. If you get dropped you shouldn't be discouraged, you keep trying and you will make it further each week.

We like to make sure all the bunches are safe and this is more important in the faster bunches. This is why we discourage people jumping to the fast bunch for the Waterfall to Sutherland leg, if you are fast enough to ride with us on this leg then you are fast enough to ride out with us.

[weiyun]

I agree that the strong riders want some degrees of speed variation to effect their training. But at the same time, the same training regime is equally effective for riders at all levels above beginners. And equally Middies often have variable number of riders and the speed is often similarly affected by the specific participants. And similar to your argument, dropped riders should try again. But the key has been, no one drops anyone until the Middies bunch have passed the Cruisers bunch.

So I'd say that it's not equitable to define the Middies as a no drop ride, and without some freedom in the pace. After all, it is a transition group to the next level. Fairness comes in the form of no drop until passing the Cruisers or at individual's discretion (most experienced riders have no issues with being dropped and know the route).

[Stuart]

Hi Christian - I'll take the C-25 bunch this weekend 7/3/10. It would be good to have a another leader to enable a sweeper as well - Colin has been doing this brilliantly but I'd say he'll be in the C-28 bunch.

[timyone]

I ask again, why is there this elitist differential treatment?

As a club, shouldn't DHBC have a formed bunch for every speed level? If RBCC/East/SCC can do it, why can't we?

The fact that there's no "rules" for the "fasties" is also the reason why many middies riders aren't interested/comfortable in moving to that group. Shouldn't the "fasties" also show some kindness and assist middies riders who want to move up to the next tier, as middies do for cruisers? Otherwise the rule should be open to all bunches and allow C-25 bunch to be the sweep for all. Of course, the bunches will have pass C-25 first.

we sorta need to split the fast group if we want to lable it, to actually fast, and the top level of the three groups. There should be a group thats just the next step up from middies, but the fast group isnt actually fast most of the time, one of the lads at the track who is a triathlete does waterfall with a faster average speed than we do?!

But yeah, it seems that for a proper training regime, most people dont want to be that fast on a sunday any way, its only when some of the faster riders are in a mood that its actually faster. Last time i was there i just continually put in attacks because it was all feeling so slow compared to trainingwith John. But yeah, have since been told that i should be sitting at 32km an hour most of the rest of the time.

The easts bunch sounds like a good option, or maybe coluzzi sunday for people that actually want to go fast, i dont think we really accomodate them.

[mikesbytes]

What this change gives us is;
C-25
C-28
M-30
F-32+

The definition on C and M is that they are no drop bunches. The basis of riding F is that you have the ability to ride by yourself and if you are dropped by F, you will have the ability to ride by yourself until you catch a bunch you choose to continue with. If I am not dropped by F once in a while, then F is going too slow.

The problem I see with M is that there are F riders taking the easy option and speeding M up. This has made it difficult for C riders to step up to M and is in part the problem with C being too large.

Perhaps C-25 should start at 6.10 so they don't end up too far behind the other groups.

[christian]

I don't know if we will need to have a 10 minute gap between C25 and C28, for the trial a few minutes should suffice. What we don't want at this initial stage is to have C28 riders dropped before they read the C25 bunch. If this new system works out then we can revise the start times at a later date.

[Stuart]

Perhaps C-25 should start at 6.10 so they don't end up too far behind the other groups.

Please have mercy on us slow riders - if an earlier start time is required I would suggest that 6:15 is early enough! We may be able to avoid the need for this if make sure the C25 bunch leaves right on time at 6:20 - if you're late, you're riding with the C28 bunch.

[PeterOS]

I think the M30 & F32 group should kick off together and aim to split up around the Cooks bridge, this way if your a fast middie you can go out hard with the fasties and if you get dropped all you have to do is take it easy untill the rest of the m30 group comes through.
This would help with people making the jump to the fasties, because I for one never realised the fasties were so slow !!! 32km average come on guys get your act together this is Dulwich Hill.

[christian]

Although the average speed of the Fasties is around 32km/h that's not what we average on the way out to Waterfall. The trip back to DH from Sutherland is usually with the middies, so the average for that section is at a lower speed. If the M and F bunches were to leave at the same time you will find people get dropped before we get to Dolls Point as the F bunch has been known to do 40km/h along Grand Parade.

The time gap is to account for the different average speeds, a 2km/h speed difference accounts for 10 minutes over the 80km distance. This was originally done so everyone arrived back at the cafe at the same time, the group was much smaller in those days.

The disadvantage I see in the order the bunches currently leave in is that if you get dropped before you catch a slower group then the bunch coming up behind you is traveling faster then the one you just got spat from.

So the question is, how important is it that we all arrive back at the same time?

[shrubb face]

I think the fasties should be faster. The other day john, Mark and myself averaged over 35km/h, with no real effort.

The fasties is a self regulating bunch, if everyone feels its too fast they yell at the person who causing trouble and on those days were we feel like hurting ourselves then we hammer it. We can impose as many rules and such on the fasties but we will still go the speed we want.

[weiyun]

There are obviously different angles to look at this. But I think it's not reasonable to have regular Fasties dictate how Cruisers and Middies should ride and vice versa eg. Expecting Cruisers to ride out at 6:10am on a Sun and expecting Middies to wait for any dropped riders. Further, many of the Middies riders are more senior and although enjoying a good intensity ride, but will never match up with many of the young guns in the Fasties. So it's discriminatory to say that they should just move to the Fasties. Might as well not join the club and just go riding solo.

The alternative is to stipulate the Middies group as no-drop until reaching C-25. After that, riders are encouraged to ride together but not forcing riders to wait for dropped riders, especially on those hills after Sutherland. This would give sufficient leeway and tailored training benefits for the individual. In any case, to enjoy and participate in a paceline back to Sutherland, riders will either stay grouped on the way up or get swept up on the return leg. Yes, we all enjoy some degree of freedom on a good day, a characteristic not restricted to the Fasties.

Going back a step, the original reason for scheduling staggered departure was to allow a similar return time for coffee together. But given the growth of the club and the capacity at Marrickville Cafe, this may no longer be a realistic objective. It may be better to allow some riders to return earlier and have their coffee/feed and leave to vacate for later arrivals.

[Miguel]

For some time now and when Lindsay asked me to I have taken the cruisers to Waterfall, and I’m happy to do so. It has also being a normal occurrence that the bunch gets split at some point, where I stay at the front and Lindsay stay at the back.
I think that is a good idea to have the C25 and C28 (we are getting technical with the terminology). This is not the first time that people has asked for coaches to take the cruisers bunch to waterfall, however none of the coaches (apart from Stuart and Lindsay) has show up to do the job. It is my understanding that Stuart and Lindsay are the only coaches that normally ride with the cruisers, and all other coaches ride with the middies or fasties, so I believe that the solutions is that some of the coaches that ride with the middies need to came with the cruisers, or the club needs to look into getting some of the people who ride with the cruisers into becoming coaches.

[christian]

I may be a regular fastie but I usually start these threads after Lindsay speaks to me about it. I am after all also the coaching coordinator. I am always open to comments and suggestions and I believe I have a good understanding on how things should be run and its only through feedback I find out what is really happening.

On another note I do realise that there aren't enough regular coaches for the C25 and C28 bunches. We have toyed with the idea of drawing up a roster for coaching but in reality us that use this ride as a training ride aren't going to want to ride a lower bunch too often. In saying this I have made myself available in the past to lead these bunches. A coach only needs to do this when there are no others who can do it. We may need to look at who is qualified and in what bunches they ride and see if we need to get some more people qualified.

[Manny]

The time gap is to account for the different average speeds, a 2km/h speed difference accounts for 10 minutes over the 80km distance. This was originally done so everyone arrived back at the cafe at the same time, the group was much smaller in those days.

So the question is, how important is it that we all arrive back at the same time?

If we all arrive at the coffee shop at the same time we'll never get our coffee

[mikesbytes]

My concern is not so much as to arriving for coffee together, but getting the slower riders off the roads before they get too busy. Safety is more important than coffee. However the C-25 ride captain can monitor the situation and make a call on it.

Good idea that the no-drop rule only applies until the group is in front of a slower group.

"Not match the young guns in Fasties" LOL, thanks for the compliment. I do see a number of F speed riders slacking it in M. A couple of weeks ago I was the only F rider out and along General Homes on the way back I started at 41kph and gradually built the pace to 46kph with 4 middie riders sitting in my slipstream. Interesting, if they were able to suck my wheel at that speed then it begs the question, why don't they step up to the challenge of riding Fasties? The problem with F riders being in M is that the result is that M rides too fast.

[PeterOS]

Mike, I rode 90% of the way with you last weekend and that pace was quite comfortable for me, but I still wouldn't ride with the fasties (if that was fasties pace we were riding at) this weekend, because if you get a flat etc, your on your own, and that's not much fun.

[weiyun]

On another note I do realise that there aren't enough regular coaches for the C25 and C28 bunches. We have toyed with the idea of drawing up a roster for coaching but in reality us that use this ride as a training ride aren't going to want to ride a lower bunch too often. In saying this I have made myself available in the past to lead these bunches. A coach only needs to do this when there are no others who can do it. We may need to look at who is qualified and in what bunches they ride and see if we need to get some more people qualified.

One of the issue for coaches (invariably more enthusiastic riders) is that these coaches will invariably move up the ladder. So maybe we should seek riders who are keen to stay and ride at the Cruisers level for coach training. Otherwise Fasties don't really need coaches given the free for all nature and Middies are well supported and will have increasing number in due course.

[Trouty]

Well Christian, I think it was a good opening thread, not sure why people make it more complicated than it should be.

I think the split of the 2 slowies groups is great and agree that it should be a no drop ride. But I think once you out grow the slowies grade you already know the way to Waterfall and if you get dropped...you get dropped. There are plenty of other groups to hang on to. Fasties should be able to do what they like.

I always accept helping leading out the slowies when asked. The only other people I have seen help out at slowies with the coaching accreditations are: Stuart, Geoff S, Toff. I also like to have a go at Middies every now and then so can't always ride with the slowies. I think it is fair that every coach has a turn. I also think credit needs to be given to people like Colin, Miguel and Anthony who consistently assist Lindsay with this growing group.

[weiyun]

"Not match the young guns in Fasties" LOL, thanks for the compliment. I do see a number of F speed riders slacking it in M. A couple of weeks ago I was the only F rider out and along General Homes on the way back I started at 41kph and gradually built the pace to 46kph with 4 middie riders sitting in my slipstream. Interesting, if they were able to suck my wheel at that speed then it begs the question, why don't they step up to the challenge of riding Fasties? The problem with F riders being in M is that the result is that M rides too fast.

It's easy to suck at 41km/h with a tailwind, certainly for short stints. We have done 45km/h behind RBCC bunches in the past with little stress.

The difference in your example was that we pushed the pace along General Holmes Dr and then backed off to collect the stragglers. We remained as one group but added variety and additional training benefit on the ride ie. Short efforts similar to intervals training as any good coach would elicit on his/her charge. As such, Middies riders also enjoyed some "fun" rather than getting caged into a fixed speed range like beginner Cruisers. Further, the benefit of allowing efforts in the Middies bunch and dropping some riders (especially after Sutherland) is that it allows natural formation of comparable riders in preparation for the paceline after Waterfall. So rather than forced into a large unmanageable paceline of 10+ riders with varying strengths, it's both safer and more productive to have discrete pacelines of 4-5 comparable riders each.

As for moving up to ride with Fasties, well, the dynamics of the bunches are very different. In that previous scenario and in the Fasties bunch, then there'd be no wait and it's sayonara time for those who got dropped, and often no fallbacks to Cruisers or Middies. Some riders actually value the "safety in numbers" proposition of bunch riding.

[weiyun]

Well Christian, I think it was a good opening thread, not sure why people make it more complicated than it should be.

But I think once you out grow the slowies grade you already know the way to Waterfall and if you get dropped...you get dropped.

No dispute that the new arrangement on the Cruisers is both logical and welcome.

The only dispute is as you also alluded to ie. Regulating the Middies to be a no-drop bunch. One that I strongly disagree with and hence this discussion based on the experiences of a regular Middies "coach" rider.

[Stuart]

It is my understanding that Stuart and Lindsay are the only coaches that normally ride with the cruisers, and all other coaches ride with the middies or fasties

Geoff Semon is also an accredited coach and mostly rides with Cruisers, as has Joanne up until recently when she's graduated up to Middies. You have been great at leading out the bunch Miguel and helping out when others won't, but I submit that the original intent of Cruisers was to have a slow bunch that didn't split and didn't drop anybody unless there was a really slow person (who would generally turn early anyway) and that was certainly the case for at least the first year or so that I rode it from Jan 2008.

We all stopped for people with a flat and it was only once we got to Waterfall that it was split for the ride back to Sutherland. We also took turns on the front with Lindsay, giving everybody a chance to make calls and signals and get the great advice that Lindsay can give with regard to bunch riding - all good for learning.

As far as all the bunches arriving back at the cafe at the same time, maybe that's not so important now there's so many of us? I mean last weekend the C25 riders were way behind all the others and in fact the C28, M & F had all left before we arrived at the servo in Sutherland.

[mikesbytes]

Perhaps looking further down the track we could go to;
C25 6.15am, Captained, no drop
C28 6.20am, Captained, no drop
M30 6.30am, Captained ???, drop permitted after overtaking
M32 6.35am, No Captain, drop permitted after overtaking
F32+ 6.40am, No Captain, no restrictions

M32 would consist of riders such as PeterOS. Alan, Weiyun, riders with near fasties speed who want to ride in more a conventional bunch.

M30 would be re populated with C28 riders who are ready to step up

This would reduce the jump from C to M and from M to F by reducing the effective jumps between them.

[weiyun]

I think that at the end of the day, bunches will resolve to what works on the day. Defining so many bunches will just turn into an intellectual exercise, although one that provides a framework for people to ride against.

[micklan]

I think that at the end of the day, bunches will resolve to what works on the day. Defining so many bunches will just turn into an intellectual exercise, although one that provides a framework for people to ride against.

Agree. Whilst the structure is there; on the day variations to accomodate lead to another great training ride

[kiwiames]

The only bunch that should be a no drop ride is the new C25 group. This group will mainly be of new riders anyway.

The rest of the groups it is very hard to call a no drop ride, and very hard to determine an average speed, as its ALLWAYS determinded by who shows up on the day.

Middies should not be restricted to an average speed and neither should Fasties or Fast Slowies, as i mentioned above, it depends who shows up, and if you get droped, then you get dropped.

The C25 group is a great idea and should be a warm welcome to new riders, or riders who just want a nice ride to Waterfall without being dropped.

To many groups/average speeds just complicates things more than is needed.

Anyway thats my 2 cents worth.

[christian]

This is becoming excessively complicated. I agree its hard to put an average speed on any bunch other then C25 as Lindsay would sit on the front for a good part of the ride. On the other hand if the C28 bunch actually averages 28km/h and then the M bunch does what they like and do over 30km/h then the move between those two bunches will become difficult. I can see the issues people face with the jump to the F bunch but in reality you just need to try to ride with us, from the start not jumping in when we come past. After all in a race if you get dropped they are not going to wait for you.

The not jumping into the fast bunch comment comes from multiple instances where M people jump into the F pace line coming back from Waterfall, its a safety thing, if you are at you're limit to just get into the line then you may have trouble holding the bike straight at that speed. A similar rule exists down at the track, you don't jump into the motor pace near the end for safety reasons.

I suggest we end this thread now and for now just go with the new C25 and C28 arrangement. They can leave MM at around the same time. We can look at revising the start times of the other bunches in the near future.

[weiyun]

On the other hand if the C28 bunch actually averages 28km/h and then the M bunch does what they like and do over 30km/h then the move between those two bunches will become difficult. I can see the issues people face with the jump to the F bunch but in reality you just need to try to ride with us...

The present proposed restrictions on Middies would cause identical problems for Middies to move to Fasties.

To get riders to jump the bunch, there has to be leeway for the bunch to push hard and potentially drop a small number of riders in the bunch. Or there'd be no training benefits for many of the riders. Further, increasing average speed from 30km/h to 32km/h is a heck of a lot harder than the jump from 25km/h to 28km/h and 28km/h to 30km/h. This is also the reason why there should be some tolerance to dropping riders in all but C-C-25 bunch.

The not jumping into the fast bunch comment comes from multiple instances where M people jump into the F pace line coming back from Waterfall, its a safety thing, if you are at you're limit to just get into the line then you may have trouble holding the bike straight at that speed. A similar rule exists down at the track, you don't jump into the motor pace near the end for safety reasons.

So why are you proposing this rule only for the Fasties? Aren't the safety of Middies/Cruisers pacelines as important?

There'd be two solutions/outcomes here,

1) Weaker riders will get dropped quickly or learn to sit at the back.
2) Coaches take charge and call people out and reorganise ie. Those who aren't sufficiently experienced/weak can be advised to either not rotate and/or split off.
3) Coaches can break up large pacelines into more than one ie. Groups of 4-5 riders.

I suggest we end this thread now and for now just go with the new C25 and C28 arrangement. They can leave MM at around the same time. We can look at revising the start times of the other bunches in the near future.

Agreed. This is the only well supported proposal at present.

[christian]

I was not suggesting that the safety of the C and M pace lines was any less important. As you said, speed changes at the top end are harder then at the bottom end. How fast is the M and C pace lines? My only real experience is with the F pace line where the speed can hit well over 55km/h (obviously not for the whole distance). This is one of those cases where I'm relying on comments and feedback so I know what is really going on.

[weiyun]

Middies pacelines have hit 60+km/h at points on a day with a good tailwind, but with lesser sustain power than stronger bunches.

At the end of the day, situational awareness and prompt on the spot intervention by those with the know-how is probably the best solution.

[Stuart]

I've locked this topic. C25 and C28 it is, leaving a couple of minutes apart starting this Sun 7th March. Note that C25 will leave at 6:20 sharp.

[weiyun]

hello?

[Stuart]

MOD: Thread re-opened but lets keep it short and sweet

Hi again. I missed last Sunday's Waterfall rides as I was down in Canberra but following the first of the C25 - C28 rides on 7/3 my feedback would be that the C25 bunch needs to leave at 06:15. C25 was caught by C28 at Rocky Point Rd lights - way too early.

I admit that the first week was abnormal in that there were heaps of flats and C25 waited till 09:00 at the servo for C28 riders who had flatted on the Waterfall - Sutherland leg (I volunteered C25 to wait BTW but it took ages for riders to turn up). This was way too long as it meant we didn't get back to Marrickville till 10:00. This is part of the "no-drop" policy but I think we need to look at experienced tyre changers (with a pump!) stopping with those who flat on this section.

Do we need to reconsider wait times following flats on that section or maybe teach people to change tyres faster

Anyway, C25 at 06:15 ??

[Rainbow]

I think that you only need one other person who is an experienced tyre changer to stay behind, sometimes 2. This is because there can often be pump dramas. You can regularily have pumps that have never been used on bikes and some just don't get the air in there fast enough.

Generally you can catch up somewhere along the line, even if that means the cafe

This week, C28 and C25 left at the same time and separated a little down the way. This also worked quite nicely up until Sutherland where I turned around.

That's my 2 cents.

[weiyun]

following the first of the C25 - C28 rides on 7/3 my feedback would be that the C25 bunch needs to leave at 06:15. C25 was caught by C28 at Rocky Point Rd lights - way too early.

I admit that the first week was abnormal in that there were heaps of flats and C25 waited till 09:00 at the servo for C28 riders who had flatted on the Waterfall - Sutherland leg (I volunteered C25 to wait BTW but it took ages for riders to turn up). This was way too long as it meant we didn't get back to Marrickville till 10:00. This is part of the "no-drop" policy but I think we need to look at experienced tyre changers (with a pump!) stopping with those who flat on this section.

Do we need to reconsider wait times following flats on that section or maybe teach people to change tyres faster

Being caught by a faster bunch early is not an issue. What's important is that the start time is acceptable so that we can attract more beginner riders interested in joining this bunch and earlier start time gets real tough in the winter. Returning later is just a consequence of the chosen pace. The alternative is to turn around earlier eg. Loftus/Heathcote. A slightly shorter route is also consistent for a beginner bunch.

As for flats. Don't forget that the larger the bunch, the greater the number of flats on a particular ride. So I'd say there can be occasions where it's better to let the bunch ride on and allow one or two more experienced volunteer to stay behind for assistance. The "no-drop" concept is meant to support weaker/slower riders, and not meant to wait for 10 tube changes and sundry mechanical repairs along the way.

[Stuart]

Good points Jess & Weiyun. I guess we waited at the servo so those riders wouldn't have to ride back alone but as they were C28 riders and quite experienced, in hindsight the C25 bunch should have just kept to our timetable and left the servo anyway (we had no flats on the entire ride). We waited for 25 minutes!

So, we'll just have the C25 and C28 bunches leaving pretty much together as originally planned and C25 won't worry ourselves with C28 riders in future. All good. See ya all on Sun.

[christian]

It has been proposed that we reverse the order of the Middies and the Fast bunch. This will enable those middies that want to move up the chance without the fear of getting spat and being left alone in the wild. We has three middies with us on Sunday and two survived although the pace wasn't as fast as usual (33km/h average). The third only got dropped due to a flat coming back from Waterfall.

These bunches don't need to leave 10 minutes apart, they can be much closer as the fast bunch will be able to stay in front. If we decide this is a good idea then for the first week or so I suggest they both leave around 6.40am. This will enable a transition period so everyone can work out what time they should be showing up.

Again, comments and suggestions welcome. We may consider moving this to a new thread.

[weiyun]

The original reason for having the Fasties leave at 6:40 was so that we can get back at similar times. If this is no longer a criteria, then there's no reason why we (at least Fasties and Middies) can't all leave at 6:30, and have an earlier home time.

[christian]

We have determined that getting back at the same time is no longer needed. This week I propose we all leave at 6.40am, just in case some of the fasties don't read the forum. This is the easiest method for now as the middies can just wait an additional 10 minutes at MM.

[weiyun]

Why orient another plan around the Fasties (once again)? Why not just let the Middies keep the existing arrangement and move the Fasties to 6:30? At the end of the day, the small group of regular Fasties are all easily contactable (unlike many of the Middies). Further, any Fasties who show up late can do the hard pace to catch up, a characteristic that the Fasties seemed to want in the first place. And not disadvantage those Middies who don't want to ride at the Fasties pace and unnecessarily delay their return by 10mins or more.

[orphic]

Middies leaving at 6:40am is awesome. A sleep in

Not that I have ridden middies for months, but I'll get there one day...

[mikesbytes]

mikesbytes / tbone 6.50am gives you another 10 minutes

[simon.sharwood]

Last Sunday I led the C25s out until Doll's Point, which was fine, but once the 28s caught us they sat on us. Once I felt a desire to save a wee bit of energy for the hills, we were left with very new and inexperienced riders at the front. A couple did not even know the way, so I felt obliged to get back on the front.
Now this is NOT a whinge, but it seems to me that if the 25s and 28s come together, the 28s should get up front and head off?

[christian]

That problem is easily solved. C28 leaves before C25.

[simon.sharwood]

Another issue that could be worth considering is the pace of the return ride.
The bunch really motors down the hills into the Shire after we cross the Princes Hwy and splits are quite frequent!
I know the route and have been dropped on it heaps of times, so can find my way home! But we may need to take care with the 25s on that section of the course too.

[christian]

Another easy one. The slower groups should have a regrouping point at the bottom of the hill. This should be before you turn onto Port Hacking Rd.

[micklan]

Middies leaving at 6:40am is awesome. A sleep in

Not that I have ridden middies for months, but I'll get there one day...

Spotted orphic ? early this morning mit resplendent
red DHBC jersey riding down Oxford street - couldn't say hi as I was squeezin between bus n car...

[orphic]

I thought that was you! I had to do a second take, but as I was about to wave out you were off between traffic...

I must admit, I recognised you by your behind

[timyone]

hey christian, i heard a rumour fasties are hammering it a bit hard for the first bit, before the road along the beach etc. It doesnt worry me, i want to ride middies now fasties are too fast for me but yeah

(i reckon the idea of swappingthem is really good, the suggestion ofputting them both at 6:30 sounds like a good one too though)

[Stuart]

Last Sunday I led the C25s out until Doll's Point, which was fine, but once the 28s caught us they sat on us. Once I felt a desire to save a wee bit of energy for the hills, we were left with very new and inexperienced riders at the front. A couple did not even know the way, so I felt obliged to get back on the front. Now this is NOT a whinge, but it seems to me that if the 25s and 28s come together, the 28s should get up front and head off?

Well, what should happen is that we have experienced coaches & / or ride leaders each weekend for C25. This means one rider to stay on the front and one to sweep. I was away last weekend and didn't know that Lindsay wouldn't be there. Once again we need to get the faster coaches riding with C25 if Lindsay, myself or another Cruisers coach will not be around. How do we organise this - a roster? A sticky thread? what say you coaches? The club has 11 accredited cycle skills coaches so we really shouldn't have a problem making sure that C25 is OK. Also, I reckon C28 should've just gone around so maybe they should start first.

[mikesbytes]

Did C28 have a problem with overtaking? Unsuitable spot, didn't know how to do a bunch overtake?

[christian]

I agree that C28 should leave before C25. As for coaching a roster may not work, but having a thread or an email list for if the regular coaches can't make it will work.
What the qualified coaches need to realise is the club payed for the course so you may have to ride down a bunch or two on occasion (and not push the pace).

[mikesbytes]

I'm happy to ride whatever bunch this Sunday, let me know where I'm needed.

[Trouty]

I agree that C28 should leave before C25. As for coaching a roster may not work, but having a thread or an email list for if the regular coaches can't make it will work.
What the qualified coaches need to realise is the club payed for the course so you may have to ride down a bunch or two on occasion (and not push the pace).

The C25's are the ones that need the coaching most, and I haven't seen many accredited coaches ride in this bunch. I am happy to do it occasionally, and I have when ever asked, but it should be shared around.

[weiyun]

The C25's are the ones that need the coaching most, and I haven't seen many accredited coaches ride in this bunch. I am happy to do it occasionally, and I have when ever asked, but it should be shared around.

This is an interesting phenomenon for the club. A few years ago before all the splits, the club always rode out as a single bunch at 6:30 with a full mix of riders and new riders received the wealth of knowledge from all the experienced riders of the club.

Ummm... The benefits of the old way.

If the C25 was smaller, I can see a scenario where new riders can ride out with C28 or Middies and we designate a neutral zone from MM to Grand Parade. This would lead out the C25s and show the way, and then the faster bunch can split.

[Stuart]

I'm happy to ride whatever bunch this Sunday, let me know where I'm needed.

I think we're covered this Sun with Geoff S and myself for C25. Seems that Geoff S will be taking over as the New Rider Development Officer come AGM time and is getting a head start - correct me if I'm wrong there Geoff.

I'm happy to be one of the regular C25 ride captains but hopefully I'll be doing some rides with C28 before the year is out. I also think that it would be good for the club if the fast, experienced coaches spent some time in the C25 bunch, imparting their knowledge and enthusiasm for cycling.

I'll lock this thread now and start a new sticky for C25 leaders.

BTW, for C25 riders (and those prepared to ride at that speed before we get tot he big hill), Jo & I are doing a RNP ride on Easter Friday - see here for details

[weiyun]

I also think that it would be good for the club if the fast, experienced coaches spent some time in the C25 bunch, imparting their knowledge and enthusiasm for cycling.

That's a good idea and we just need regular reminders on it.