Base training

Road cycling & upcoming rides
timyone
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Postby timyone » 20 Mar 2010, 10:37

http://www.cycling-inform.com/articles/ ... Page1.html

a lot of people seem to be up- to base training this time of year




•When you are in a group, unless YOU are dictating the tempo of the group, you are essentially at the whim of whatever the group does. If that happens to coincide with what you need or want, then great! If not, you could be making a training error by attempting to hang onto the group.


Our fasties bunch doesnt suit me at the moment :( so sorry lads, if im there i might be a middy


The key notes are:

•Building an aerobic base is perhaps the single most important phase of the year since it is the foundation upon which your season is built.

•Many riders never reach their full potential at bike racing because they neglect this critical phase of training.

•Base training is about preparing your body for the demanding efforts you will be making during racing and is the fundamental base for all other high intensity training you’ll be doing later on in your training plan.

•Stick to your plan and stay between 60-80% of Max heart rate at 95-105 rpm for as much of the Ride as possible even if it involves the sacrifice of your bunch riding.

•Balance your base training for functional strength training to ensure that you are challenging your whole body neurological system.

•To break the training up you can incorporate a very limited amount of high intensity efforts (above 90% of HMR) and spin-ups to keep you fresh.

•Remember to adjust your base training to the type of cyclist you are

timyone
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Postby timyone » 20 Mar 2010, 11:11

http://www.cycling-inform.com/articles/ ... Page1.html

ok, this one is on riding hard after you have the base

timyone
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Postby timyone » 20 Mar 2010, 11:48

http://www.cycling-inform.com/articles/ ... Page1.html

one legged roller training, i tried some one legged riding on the rollers the other day, it freaked me out a bit, but this lad reckons it would be good for core strength


racing vs training, for training

http://www.cycling-inform.com/articles/ ... Page1.html

he only seems to recomend it if you are riding up a grade, like when i ride A on sats at heffron.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 20 Mar 2010, 16:01

timyone wrote:http://www.cycling-inform.com/articles/395/1/Are-one-legged-cycling-drills-good-for-you/Page1.html

one legged roller training, i tried some one legged riding on the rollers the other day, it freaked me out a bit, but this lad reckons it would be good for core strength...

Alex Simmons, our local guru in power training and coach takes a different view. Double your training time efficiency and just pedal with 2 legs together ie. Twice the result for a fixed amount of time. His regular line is... "Train one legged if you want to race/ride one legged." :lol: :lol: :lol:

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T-Bone
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Postby T-Bone » 20 Mar 2010, 16:08

Focusing on the pedal rotation, especially the upstroke should achieve what those one leg drills aim to, plus working both legs at the same time should prevent any possible uneven training that could occur.

Tim, i recall it was always you and John that were pushing the pace in the fast bunch!

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Postby timyone » 20 Mar 2010, 20:26

nah i doubt it, can you imagine me going fast on the road? your brobably mistakening for my fast brother, i was probably on your wheel :D

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Postby micklan » 21 Mar 2010, 18:09

very useful thread timyone- domo arigato gozaimasu :D

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Postby orphic » 22 Mar 2010, 13:12

I'm trying to do a bit of base training at the moment. The annyoing thing is that it's a bit time consuming... And track doesn't really fit into it all.

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Postby timyone » 23 Mar 2010, 13:33

yeah but you need to learn the skills at the track as well, and some of the racing is good for learning to race. I dont reckon its worth doing it as clinically well as what the pros do, as they dont need to learn the skills we do etc

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Postby orphic » 23 Mar 2010, 15:00

Yes, this is true. I want to try and get down for some of the Monday night racing.

I just take more time to recover than my fitter friends, so have to be careful not to over cook myself.

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geoffs
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Postby geoffs » 27 Mar 2010, 13:20

one legged drills went out of favour at least 10 yrs ago.
Alex Simmons comment is the most up to date

timyone
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Postby timyone » 29 Mar 2010, 07:39

how much of training is like bits and peices of the medical world etc when it comes to theories like this? will they be in again in ten years?
Tomas said they do bits and peices of one legged stuff over in the czeck republic

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 29 Mar 2010, 08:34

timyone wrote:how much of training is like bits and peices of the medical world etc when it comes to theories like this? will they be in again in ten years?

Then do it in 10 years time when there's evidence to suggest there's real advantage. Presently the best evidence with direct power measurements showed it's less effective than other best current training methods. Without scientific basis, it's quack training.

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Postby timyone » 29 Mar 2010, 08:48

So its not up to date with the current ais traininegimes? Which ones are those? Are we up to date withm with any thing we do? What is it they do?
As an elite athlete racing all the time it may not help. Can it fit in with any of the stages of learning how to ride a bike? What sort of cyclists was the study(s) aimed at?

-f I go out and train amazingly hard at practices that aren't the same as what another rider is doing, but I do them harder and with better emphesis on the right intencity amounts, what ever they are etc, can I not get faster any way?
I've seen people get faster doing some weirde things. But yeah

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 29 Mar 2010, 09:05

You can get faster with any reasonable training. But good training is about efficiency for the time spent. Why spend 8 hours when the training objective can be achieved in 6? And to optimise, one can't go past evidence based analysis. Without it, it's a guess.

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Postby timyone » 29 Mar 2010, 09:42

Yeah, but what is the latest info? Do you actually know the latest ais training? Is what you know up to date? Is it all passing through the system? I can tell you what they were doing ten years ago.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 29 Mar 2010, 10:05

timyone wrote:Yeah, but what is the latest info? Do you actually know the latest ais training? Is what you know up to date? Is it all passing through the system? I can tell you what they were doing ten years ago.

AIS is not the only source. Read up journals amongst other sources. Further, a good training plan has to be individualised and there's no such thing as "AIS training".

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Postby timyone » 30 Mar 2010, 18:50

Its interesting that one legged leg press is thecentre of so many training regimes, yet peddling, which is more all round, is so against every ones point of vire

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 30 Mar 2010, 19:48

timyone wrote:Its interesting that one legged leg press is thecentre of so many training regimes, yet peddling, which is more all round, is so against every ones point of vire

Selling one legged training is gimmicky, and gimmicks sell and is a good differentiator to other regimes. Whether it's meaningful or not is quite irrelevant.

For better understanding based on science, go and talk to Alex Simmons when you see him next on the track.

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 30 Mar 2010, 19:55

What's the benefit of one legged leg press?

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Julio
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Postby Julio » 30 Mar 2010, 20:22

Okay I will weigh into this one limbed argument. When I swim Freestyle, Backstroke or Butterfly I can do a multitude of training drills to strengthen that arm. When I run I can do plyometrics training drills to strengthen that leg....why can I know not do that for cycling? please explain. Everything in moderation yeah.

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Postby weiyun » 30 Mar 2010, 20:33

Julio wrote:Okay I will weigh into this one limbed argument. When I swim Freestyle, Backstroke or Butterfly I can do a multitude of training drills to strengthen that arm. When I run I can do plyometrics training drills to strengthen that leg....why can I know not do that for cycling? please explain. Everything in moderation yeah.

Why do you want to only strengthen one arm or one leg? Does the other leg wants to get lazy?

As Alex says, train one legged if you want to race on one leg. He does! :wink:

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Julio
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Postby Julio » 30 Mar 2010, 21:04

weiyun wrote:
Julio wrote:Okay I will weigh into this one limbed argument. When I swim Freestyle, Backstroke or Butterfly I can do a multitude of training drills to strengthen that arm. When I run I can do plyometrics training drills to strengthen that leg....why can I know not do that for cycling? please explain. Everything in moderation yeah.

Why do you want to only strengthen one arm or one leg? Does the other leg wants to get lazy?

As Alex says, train one legged if you want to race on one leg. He does! :wink:


But I am not strengthing one arm or one leg and neglecting the other, I am stregthening them concurently. For instance one of the freestyle drills I use is called 1,2,3,4 where you do one arm then the other, then two on one side the two on the other..and so on and so on. This overloads one arm then gives it a break while I do the other side whilst working on my body balance, breathing and kicking skills all at the same time. Plyometrics drill, one legged hops over boxes of differing heights strengthens muscles in a differing way that two legged hops would. I am all for training how you race but in relation to base training I would break the skill down then set a training drill to help improve that skill.

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Postby weiyun » 30 Mar 2010, 21:37

Julio wrote:But I am not strengthing one arm or one leg and neglecting the other, I am stregthening them concurently. For instance one of the freestyle drills I use is called 1,2,3,4 where you do one arm then the other, then two on one side the two on the other..and so on and so on. This overloads one arm then gives it a break while I do the other side whilst working on my body balance, breathing and kicking skills all at the same time. Plyometrics drill, one legged hops over boxes of differing heights strengthens muscles in a differing way that two legged hops would. I am all for training how you race but in relation to base training I would break the skill down then set a training drill to help improve that skill.

As Alex S would ask, what skill are there in rotating a pair of pedals with feet locked in? It's quite different to swimming and other sports where the limbs have a far greater degree of freedom.

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Postby timyone » 30 Mar 2010, 22:01

weiyun wrote:
timyone wrote:Its interesting that one legged leg press is thecentre of so many training regimes, yet peddling, which is more all round, is so against every ones point of vire

Selling one legged training is gimmicky, and gimmicks sell and is a good differentiator to other regimes. Whether it's meaningful or not is quite irrelevant.

For better understanding based on science, go and talk to Alex Simmons when you see him next on the track.
? one legged leg press is gimmecky?
lol have a talk to the ozzy sprint coaches :D

Mike they do it because they are doing 250kg one legged (and that may be the girls) and its bad for their backs to try 500kg both legged

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Postby Strawburger » 30 Aug 2011, 09:43

OK, resurrecting an old thread here, hopefully someone can answer these questions for me!

I have decided my racing season has finished for this year. My focus next season will be Canberra Tour, with the usual handicap races/scratch races thrown in during the year. I also have a shiny new frame to get used to so i don't intend to go particularly fast on the new bike straight away. Essentially - going to avoid the shorter races and attempt to succeed on the longer road races.

My results over the shorter races this year are reasonable, but this season i generally popped at about the 60-70km mark in most of the longer races. I put this down to recovering from injury last spring/summer and not having enough kms in the legs going into autumn/winter.

Now my questions are with the above in mind:
would base training whilst getting used to the new bike be a good idea?
Will i need to rest before starting base training?
How long generally do people base train for before lifting their intensity (the article recommends 2 months - but is that enough)?
I avoid gyms at all costs - can i still do the strengthening exercises without free weights?

Anything else i need to know?

Cheers

Simon

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 30 Aug 2011, 10:00

My 2c worth.

I think you need to periodise and work out a structured training plan given you have 1 year to run. And given your tendency to pop at the 60km mark, it suggests that you lack the endurance to race the full distance. As they say, your race endurance is 2/3 of your training distance. So for those 100km races, you'll need to gradually build up your miles and obviously power at the same time. This in effect is base training.

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Postby wallman » 30 Aug 2011, 10:50

Hi Simon,

A new frame shouldn't really be a factor assuming you've carried your old position over to the new bike. If you haven't and have made some changes then it's generally recommended that you make the changes incrementally and take it relatively easy while doing so. Base training would be perfect for this.

I haven't read that widely and am by no means an expert but as Weiyun says and you're probably aware, the theory is that you need to periodise to get the best out of yourself for a target race. The plan I work to includes 3 months of base, then 2 months of increasing intensity before a couple of weeks of peaking and racing. Then repeat that build/peak/race cycle as required through your season. 3 peaks in a season is a lot from what I understand, but otherwise this is the classic periodised training plan for cyclists. I decided this year that this is a lot of work for only 2 weeks of peak fitness at a time so I stretched that racing block out to 6 weeks for my second peak mid-year which seemed to work very well. Now though I'm back into a build phase to get ready for my final peak which will be Grafton and maybe some track stuff.

Again, from what I've read, the benefits of weight training for road cyclists seem to be uncertain. I wouldn't want to be carrying any unnecessary muscle around the hills of Canberra. I got into cycling because I liked riding not because I liked the gym so I do strength sessions on the bike to build climbing strength instead. Note though that these are at fairly low rpms and if you have any fit or positioning issues on the bike you will damage yourself.

Just a final note on base training - in my experience it's physically easy but psychologically hard. You'll be going slow while others go fast but just need to grin and bear it. With any luck it will pay off in the long run!

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Postby timyone » 30 Aug 2011, 12:51

wow every thing aiming fr 3 peaks a season! far out, I am glad I get to aim to just have fun at every race hey! I would seriously kill my self with stress over winning in those 3 different peaks!!!

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Postby Strawburger » 30 Aug 2011, 17:04

Great stuff, thanks all for those comments. I intend to plan out next year (it will be pretty much the same as this year) with a couple of target events - Canberra being the main objective and one later in the year which is to be determined. That will make it 2 peaks. I like the sound of extending the peaks that way i will enjoy the racing for the last 20-30kms of the event instead of slumping over the bars in pain! I feel comfortable riding 130kms in training keeping the heart rate at about 80% avg but not at race pace where my heart tends to jump to 90% avg. I'm assuming more kms on the bike will improve the HR (this training is unstructured at the moment too)

With the strength exercises with low RPM's, are we talking on the hills? Should my heart rate stay the same doing this?

Yeah, the new bike should be set up very much like the old one but i will need to get a feel for it and make those micro adjustments before jumping in to racing. I will find it tough to keep to a slower pace but i can see the benefits, we'll see how i go. I won't be stressing about winning - for me not finishing last is a win!

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Postby weiyun » 30 Aug 2011, 17:10

More miles = Better endurance. More power = Lower HR. Nothing beats upping one's power. Given your seriousness, have you considered consulting a qualified coach?

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Postby mikesbytes » 30 Aug 2011, 22:51

At Canberra this year, I was one of the better climbers in my race and you wouldn't rate me light at 77kg. The answer there is power to weight ratio. Yes do the K's to build the base, but make sure there's reasonable focus on building power.

By low RPM's, what cadence are we talking?

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Postby Strawburger » 31 Aug 2011, 10:03

Thanks again all.

weiyun wrote:More miles = Better endurance. More power = Lower HR. Nothing beats upping one's power.

mikesbytes wrote:At Canberra this year, I was one of the better climbers in my race and you wouldn't rate me light at 77kg. The answer there is power to weight ratio. Yes do the K's to build the base, but make sure there's reasonable focus on building power.


Well i can't see myself dropping any more kg's (i'm about 65kg at the moment) so the key now is to build my endurance gradually but focus on increasing power as noted above. Rough calcs on the climbs around Sydney (3-4km length) have me at about 3.3W/kg at training speed, around 4.3W/kg in a race situation over a similar distance. Unless i grow old really fast, The Canberra Tour will be extremely hard for me to get any sort of result in the next 10 years but the aim is to improve and better my times each year.

Looks like i will need to read up about building up power whilst doing endurance training.

weiyun wrote:have you considered consulting a qualified coach?


Tried that option beginning of this year. Unfortunately the coach ended up being a rather expensive email depository and the experience was not that great. If i was to go down that path again i would need to build a relationship with the person before trusting them as a coach.

wallman wrote:in my experience it's physically easy but psychologically hard. You'll be going slow while others go fast but just need to grin and bear it


I gave it a trial this morning to see how i go mentally. It's very difficult as you say. 2-3 months will be a hard slog!

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Postby wallman » 01 Sep 2011, 15:35

mikesbytes wrote:By low RPM's, what cadence are we talking?


~60 rpm at or slightly above LT.

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Postby mikesbytes » 01 Sep 2011, 15:41

wallman wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:By low RPM's, what cadence are we talking?


~60 rpm at or slightly above LT.


What length intervals?

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 01 Sep 2011, 15:54

Julio wrote:Okay I will weigh into this one limbed argument. When I swim Freestyle, Backstroke or Butterfly I can do a multitude of training drills to strengthen that arm. When I run I can do plyometrics training drills to strengthen that leg....why can I know not do that for cycling? please explain. Everything in moderation yeah.

You can certainly "strengthen", but one key difference b/n the sports is that bikes have alterable gearing while swimmers/runners don't.

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Postby T-Bone » 01 Sep 2011, 22:15

weiyun wrote:
Julio wrote:Okay I will weigh into this one limbed argument. When I swim Freestyle, Backstroke or Butterfly I can do a multitude of training drills to strengthen that arm. When I run I can do plyometrics training drills to strengthen that leg....why can I know not do that for cycling? please explain. Everything in moderation yeah.

You can certainly "strengthen", but one key difference b/n the sports is that bikes have alterable gearing while swimmers/runners don't.


I think you responded to that one back in March! :wink:

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 02 Sep 2011, 00:48

T-Bone wrote:I think you responded to that one back in March! :wink:

Silly time warp! :oops:

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Postby timyone » 02 Sep 2011, 14:53

the whole not training one legged at all is an interesting one, if you have a weaker left leg, what do you do?

In leg weights for cycling they do a heap of one legged.

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Postby timyone » 02 Sep 2011, 14:55

oops same deal.

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Postby mikesbytes » 02 Sep 2011, 15:23

Ironically I coached a short one legged drill this morning. What it was more about was training them to rotate the leg thru a full circle, encouraging them to recruit glutes and hamstrings.

I was a bit anti one legged drills, but I'm beginning to see a bit of purpose for some. I'm not that keen on unclipping though

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Postby rhys » 02 Sep 2011, 16:03

mikesbytes wrote:Ironically I coached a short one legged drill this morning. What it was more about was training them to rotate the leg thru a full circle, encouraging them to recruit glutes and hamstrings.


This is really the only reason I do them. And by do them, I mean I might do a few revolutions in a two hour ride. Not really something I focus on for reasons aforementioned.


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