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wallman
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Postby wallman » 26 Feb 2009, 14:23

So in a noble but probably doomed attempt to singlehandedly ward off the threat of recession in Australia I'm getting very, very close to deciding to buy myself a Powertap hub to train with. Problem is, I can't actually find anywhere in Oz to buy one. If anyone's got any idea who distributes and or stocks the things here I'd be keen to hear from them.
ta, Matt

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 26 Feb 2009, 15:38

You can get/order them from upper end bike/tri stores but be prepared to pay high local prices. I am sure Cheeky Monkey in Randwick would be able to assist.

IIRC and didn't get the SRM agent mixed up, they are handled by a setup in Canberra. Services can be made through that agent.

Otherwise they are far cheaper on eBay, especially in the US.

wallman
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Postby wallman » 26 Feb 2009, 17:09

If you're talking about Kinetic in Canberra then you're talking about an SRM distibutor, not a Powertap distributor. I'm good mates with one of the two guys that started that company but not good enough to put an SRM on my bike at a price I can afford!

I've been looking overseas but I'd be more comfortable spending this sort of money locally. The way the forex situation is at the moment it's probably cheaper to buy from the UK than the US but unfortunately everyone has the same idea and the UK's been pretty much emptied out of Powertaps until the next production run in March.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 26 Feb 2009, 17:39

And what do you know, Trek does Saris here. Not sure if their agreement also covers Powertap but I am sure they'll know the distributor for the PT range if you call.

http://www.tba.com.au/brands/6/saris

Actually, confirmed it's Trek Aust.

http://www.cycleops.com/t-international ... utors.aspx

wallman
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Postby wallman » 27 Feb 2009, 08:36

Thanks. I'd tried the Cycleops Australia site but got stuck in a dealer search that only worked if you were from Canada or the USA. I'll see what Trek Australia have to say for themselves!

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 27 Feb 2009, 09:12

Good luck and don't forget to show us the new toy when you get it. It's a very interesting piece of technology when used correctly.

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Simon Llewellyn
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Postby Simon Llewellyn » 27 Feb 2009, 09:14

Hey Matt why a power meter? They're useful but value to benefit depending on the amount of training you do??? If you don't do enough training or the right training to improve power it will just tell what you already know, same as a speedo or heart rate monitor.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 27 Feb 2009, 09:57

Hey Matt why a power meter? They're useful but value to benefit depending on the amount of training you do??? If you don't do enough training or the right training to improve power it will just tell what you already know, same as a speedo or heart rate monitor.
Not true. With a PM, one can be very specific in one's training for maximum power gain, leading to a very high level of training efficiency for time. In other words, no more junk training miles that most of us do eg. Club bunch rides.

However, the cost effectiveness equation will also depends on one's knowledge in power training and the ability analyze the data and adjust accordingly. Too many PM users out there just read numbers on the screen and without a good power based coach, it indeed would be a waste of money. Don't forget to read up on Andrew Coggan's book.

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Simon Llewellyn
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Postby Simon Llewellyn » 27 Feb 2009, 10:15

Not true. With a PM, one can be very specific in one's training for maximum power gain, leading to a very high level of training efficiency for time. In other words, no more junk training miles that most of us do eg. Club bunch rides.

However, the cost effectiveness equation will also depends on one's knowledge in power training and the ability analyze the data and adjust accordingly. Too many PM users out there just read numbers on the screen and without a good power based coach, it indeed would be a waste of money. Don't forget to read up on Andrew Coggan's book.
But if you really believe in them why haven't you bought one? It wouldn't of been a significant proportional cost increase from what your road bike cost. I"ve considered an SRM for my track bike but I don't really beleive it would give me the significant benefit to justify the cost. If I was a pro & had the time to complete a full training regime I would definitely own one. A couple of the vets that race in Sydney own them, apparently they're a fantastic toy.

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Postby mikesbytes » 27 Feb 2009, 10:21

Discussed this with Alex Simmons, he said trek too. However he said why not get it from overseas

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 27 Feb 2009, 11:01

But if you really believe in them why haven't you bought one? It wouldn't of been a significant proportional cost increase from what your road bike cost. I"ve considered an SRM for my track bike but I don't really beleive it would give me the significant benefit to justify the cost. If I was a pro & had the time to complete a full training regime I would definitely own one. A couple of the vets that race in Sydney own them, apparently they're a fantastic toy.
This question has nothing to do with subjective personal decisions on equipment purchase. I am an amateur with disposable cash, my purchase decisions do not have to be evidence based nor objective. The fact of the matter is, power training concept has been objectively and scientifically proven and correlated down to the molecular level. It is evidence based. But it's not dope and can not magically give out performance boosts. It is but a tool to more precisely and efficiently guide one's training.

As for the individual, to make it work, one has to understand the concept and science, and be willing to spend the time to analyze the data. For me, I certainly have thought about buying a PM eg. iBike or PT, but given the fact that I don't need cycling to make a living, I don't have the time to enter into structured training, I don't have the desire to enter a whole bunch of races and be the next elite grade champion, so there's no good value for me to make that investment. Despite that, I have read extensively on the whole concept and understand it and have found that I can still apply much of what I learnt to my amateur training, but based on PE (Perceived Exertion). The whole concept is just consistent with everything I understand about the human physiology and research methodology.

And the idea that "Pro = PM ownership" is also wrong. As pointed out by the various gurus in the field, many pros, and even coaches don't fully understand the science of power and Andrew Coggan's concept. They just read numbers, leading to poor return on $ investment. But for people who are willing to learn and apply, it is the most precise training tool available. And if Matt has the right attitude, then I don't see any reason why he shouldn't invest in it.

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Simon Llewellyn
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Postby Simon Llewellyn » 27 Feb 2009, 11:26

That's why I"m interested in knowing why Matty is looking at investing. I know he doesn't do anymore training than the rest of us so he must see it as a beneficial tool to the tune of a considerable investment, I"m just interested to what has spurred this decision?

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Postby weiyun » 27 Feb 2009, 11:48

That's why I"m interested in knowing why Matty is looking at investing. I know he doesn't do anymore training than the rest of us so he must see it as a beneficial tool to the tune of a considerable investment, I"m just interested to what has spurred this decision?
If that's the case, then I would also chime in on the side of caution. PM is a great tool for people who are willing to put in the work. If one is not interested in the scientific methodology, then it can be an expensive gadget. But if one is just short on time but willing to do the science, then it can remain a great tool to get the most out of those limited hours.

The thing about it is. PT wheels can be had for around $1k (second hand), and what's more worthwhile, a deep rim race wheel or a PM to boost one's training efficiency? Saving Ws with deep rim wheel or Potentiating more Ws in those legs?

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geoffs
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Postby geoffs » 27 Feb 2009, 15:29

Without getting into the science and the reason to buy, Steve Hogg always seems to have a fair supply of PT hubs in his shop.

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Toff
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Postby Toff » 27 Feb 2009, 18:54

Brim Brothers are talking about bringing a much cheaper Power Meter to the market. It's probably just under a year away from hitting th market but it looks pretty revolutionary. There is also a survey that they are asking people to take, which helps them to put features in the product (although I think the survey finishes soon on 1 March.)

- Brim Brothers webiste
- Survey
- Contact Barry Redmond here for the full story if you're interested

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 27 Feb 2009, 19:01

If the are still at the user requirement stage, I doubt they'll be ready for market release in 12 mths. Further, I would question a first gen product in terms of reliability amongst other issues. And it could always be a vapourware.

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Postby wallman » 27 Feb 2009, 21:00

That's why I"m interested in knowing why Matty is looking at investing. I know he doesn't do anymore training than the rest of us so he must see it as a beneficial tool to the tune of a considerable investment, I"m just interested to what has spurred this decision?
I've only got the roughest idea of how much training the other active racers in the club do but during the road season last year I was doing probably 10-12 hours a week. I've now been riding once a week since I stuffed my neck in December but strangely I feel very strong on the bike. This has got me thinking that I could be training more effectively.

The PT is one way to do that. It's certainly not the only way, and may not be the best. I dearly hope I don't become someone who considers non-training specific time on the bike as junk miles, but at the same time I'd like to make the most of the time and physiology available to me.

Matt

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Postby FAswad » 07 Apr 2009, 14:26

Weiyun

I take issue with your statement re. junk training miles. Junk training miles are when you are doing 4 hour rides every day at endurance training speeds. On the other hand, I'd like to invite you on one of my solo or small group Sunday rides and I am absolutely certain that you will change you mind about long rides being junk training miles.

Show me that power-based training program for road cyclists (not crit racers or track sprinters) that does not involve at least one weekly long distance training ride, and I will declare you the Andrew Coggan of our club.

Power training is great, but I am yet to see a power training expert who has completely done away with long rides (for road cyclists).
Not true. With a PM, one can be very specific in one's training for maximum power gain, leading to a very high level of training efficiency for time. In other words, no more junk training miles that most of us do eg. Club bunch rides.
However, the cost effectiveness equation will also depends on one's knowledge in power training and the ability analyze the data and adjust accordingly. Too many PM users out there just read numbers on the screen and without a good power based coach, it indeed would be a waste of money. Don't forget to read up on Andrew Coggan's book.

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Postby weiyun » 07 Apr 2009, 15:18

I take issue with your statement re. junk training miles. Junk training miles are when you are doing 4 hour rides every day at endurance training speeds. On the other hand, I'd like to invite you on one of my solo or small group Sunday rides and I am absolutely certain that you will change you mind about long rides being junk training miles.

Show me that power-based training program for road cyclists (not crit racers or track sprinters) that does not involve at least one weekly long distance training ride, and I will declare you the Andrew Coggan of our club.

Power training is great, but I am yet to see a power training expert who has completely done away with long rides (for road cyclists).
The term "junk training miles" are often referenced by PM advocates in reference to those non-specific rides and bludging one does in a bunch ride eg. Freewheeling, easy pedal on downhills etc. It has nothing to do with the scenario you presented. As we both know, from the Power Training perspective, a proper session is all about sustained power output, hence the term of "junk miles". I don't think the term down plays the need for long endurance rides but just the way how it's executed and the efficiency of it. And quite specifically, "junk miles" suggests that one can induce the same physiological adaptation of a 4 hours training ride in a significantly shorter time through better application of power.

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Postby shrubb face » 07 Apr 2009, 16:34

The term "junk training miles" are often referenced by PM advocates in reference to those non-specific rides and bludging one does in a bunch ride eg. Freewheeling, easy pedal on downhills etc.
I think you've just inadvertent supported the benifits of riding waterfall on a fixie.

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Postby FAswad » 07 Apr 2009, 16:43

Are you absolutely sure about that? Now you really need to join us next Sunday.

Explain to me how, you are going to replicate the benefits of a 90km ride which goes through the RNP and averages 34km/h in a single short training session. Quickly breaking this ride down in my head, I say you probably need 3 1-hour sessions to get the same adaptation (2 LT sessions and 2 at Vo2Max sessions).
one can induce the same physiological adaptation of a 4 hours training ride in a significantly shorter time through better application of power. The term "junk training miles" are often referenced by PM advocates in reference to those non-specific rides and bludging one does in a bunch ride eg. Freewheeling, easy pedal on downhills etc. It has nothing to do with the scenario you presented. As we both know, from the Power Training perspective, a proper session is all about sustained power output, hence the term of "junk miles". I don't think the term down plays the need for long endurance rides but just the way how it's executed and the efficiency of it. And quite specifically, "junk miles" suggests that

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Postby weiyun » 07 Apr 2009, 16:47

I think you've just inadvertent supported the benifits of riding waterfall on a fixie.
I have never argued against the benefits of a fixie for training. But at the same time, it's also well known that fixies don't mix well with a regular road bunch group and it's well accepted courtesy to sit at the back. :P

But as others have said, fixie is good training for fixed riding and one will get strong. But is it the best and only way to train for a roadie, I am not sure. The evidence suggests that the vastly varying cadence of a fixie may be good for a track rider but not necessarily needed for a multi-geared road bike rider.
Last edited by weiyun on 07 Apr 2009, 17:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby weiyun » 07 Apr 2009, 17:03

Are you absolutely sure about that? Now you really need to join us next Sunday.

Explain to me how, you are going to replicate the benefits of a 90km ride which goes through the RNP and averages 34km/h in a single short training session. Quickly breaking this ride down in my head, I say you probably need 3 1-hour sessions to get the same adaptation (2 LT sessions and 2 at Vo2Max sessions).
I've done the reading and those Power Training experts have done the necessary research and have the data. And where did I say that the adaptation of a 3hr 90+km training ride is the same as a single short training session? All I said was that the same adaptation could be induced in a significantly shorter time, and potentially a 20-30% reduction in time is a significant reduction eg. 2hr, even 2.5hr. As demonstrated by various people, running a PM has been able to demonstrate to them holes in their training despite their best effort through PE or HRM.

As for "probably need 3 1-hour sessions...". Well, that may be true, but it may also be not true. It's an untested opinion. Maybe it's something that's better answered by the various extrapolated data one can obtain from a PM to quantify that training load eg. TSS etc.

The fact of the matter is, power training principle is consistent with known physiological pathways and very few training programs is so evidence based. And with all the quantifiable data collected and the scientific approach to data analysis, their statements are typically well backed by evidence. It's hard to argue against it.

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Postby wallman » 07 Apr 2009, 21:48

...meanwhile, back at the ranch, I went ahead and ordered myself one of these from the UK and it arrived last Monday. Somewhat disasterously it arrived with a Shimano freehub. I'm now waiting for the replacement Campy freehub to arrive. Once I've got that I'll need to do some fiddling with the new freehub and some yet to be sourced washers to fit the wheel to my bike in the short term. In the long term the wheel will need to be re-dished and have more obscure spacers fitted. It's been a bit of a drag in other words. It's not much consolation that I'm working too hard to ride at the moment. Hopefully I'll be functional for Easter!
Matt

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Postby T-Bone » 07 Apr 2009, 22:53

I have never argued against the benefits of a fixie for training. But at the same time, it's also well known that fixies don't mix well with a regular road bunch group and it's well accepted courtesy to sit at the back. :P
Nothing wrong with fixies in the fast bunch!!


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